Welcome to dwell on these things. My name is Brian Adams. I oversee student ministries here at dwell, and today we're talking about dwells middle school ministry, which is the fastest growing ministry in dwell over the past year, it's run by over 15% seen 75 students come into relationship with Christ. God has blessed us with remarkable growth in our middle school ministries. Very exciting. And this morning, I'm joined by Brett McCallum and Conrad Hilario, two of our elders and two middle school leaders of a boys group called uppercut, which is a perfect boys group name in middle school. Love it. Uppercut really has been a microcosm of what we've been seeing across our middle school ministry. It's a group that's seen a lot of growth. It's seen a lot of students come to Christ and so thank you guys for joining. I'm really eager to hear about what God is doing here in your group. It's gonna be great. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. So you guys started this group with your sons, and you had about six people to start, and over the past year and a half, the group has just exploded with growth. So why don't you just talk us through big picture like, what, what happened? How did you start the group, and how did it What happened that it has grown so much over the past year and change? Well, one thing that we talked about, kind of in the year or so leading up to the group was that we wanted to start with a smaller group, so that we could kind of put a little bit of ownership on our sons and on the, you know, small number of kids there to actually see that there's a need to reach out. And I know that there's been, like, other cases where a subgroup has started really large, with 12 to 15 kids. So when you're already at that size to begin with, it doesn't necessarily seem that urgent, you know, to try to, like, bring people out, and we're trying to instill the ethic of evangelism with our kids. So we actually went to the middle school leadership and said, Hey, we actually would rather not get a lot of kids assigned to our group when they were kind of organizing the sixth grade groups. So that was one thing, and then two, our family and Conrad's family were kind of coming up with a decision of what we're going to do with our kids when they went into middle school, whether they would continue going to Calumet, or if they would move over and join public school. And so that was like a somewhat difficult, you know, decision to make for not only us, but also our kids, because they didn't know anybody at dominion. But that was something that we felt like would be worth praying about looking into, because there could be a lot of opportunities to reach out over there. But then there was other concerns, because, you know, we didn't have, like, a lot of, you know, spiritual families that were going there, or anything like that. And so there's question marks that come up with Columbus public schools. You know, is the education gonna be good? Is there gonna are kids gonna be exposed to, like, a bunch of terrible things? What about bullies? What about drugs? What about all these different things? And so we had to, kind of like, pray through that and talk through that. So maybe you can share what that was like for your family. Funny how that happened. I think that your son, Max, got it in his mind that he didn't want to go to Calumet anymore for various reasons. And of course, Julius, my son, who is his best friend, they were talking, and Max had expressed that he wanted to go to public school, Dominion Middle School, which is actually right across the street from Calumet. And one day, I was talking to Julius, and he was talking about how Max wants to go there for middle school, and I asked him, I said, What do you want to do? And he said, I don't know. I'm not sure. And I knew that from talking to you that you were very hesitant about sending max to middle school or public middle school without having some peers there, for obvious reasons. And so as I've talked to as I talked to Julius, more about it, it was interesting, because he was somewhat inclined. To maybe leave Calumet a lot of his friends and join max to go and go to Dominion Middle School. But my wife and I talked about this, and obviously there's some risks associated with that, but we knew that Julius had a good character, that he was not easily influenced by kids, and that he had some pretty strong convictions about following God. And so we made kind of a radical decision where we went to Julius and said, Listen, if you want to go to public middle school with Max, then we will give you that opportunity to do that, but we want you to think and pray about this, and we want you to come up with a pros and cons list. So this summer, leading up to the sixth grade year, I talked to Julia several times, and I said, so have you thought about this decision more? And he said, not really. I need to think more about it. And after about a couple months of him just sort of thinking through this, and not really like making a decision, I talked to him one, one time. I think it was like maybe right before school was about to begin. And I said, so have you come to a decision? He said, Yeah, I think I want to go to public middle school. And I said, Wow, that's amazing. What are your thoughts on this? What were like, some of the pros and cons that you came up with? And he started with a list of cons. He said, Well, he said, first of all, I worry a little bit about whether I'm going to get a good education, because you talk to me about, like, how at public school, education is not going to be as good as Calumet. And I told him, I said, Well, here's the thing, if you are going to go to public school, you can sort of coast and do the bare minimum, and teachers are not really going to force you to, like Excel, but if you want to get a good education, you can get a good education at any public middle school. And so it's really going to be on you to take your education seriously and take responsibility for that. I said the second thing is, you know if, if you want to really excel in school, then your teachers are going to identify you as somebody who actually takes this seriously, and they're going to help you out. He said, The second con that he came up with was, he said, I think students are going to, like, show me sex. And he was, you know, 11 years old at the time, and what he meant was pornography. We've been talking a lot about that. And I said, yeah, there's a possibility that, what other cons Do you have? And he said, Well, I think that people might start trying to make fun of me for being a Christian. And I said that could be a con, but according to the Bible, that could also be a positive thing too, because Jesus says that you know when you are persecuted for me, that you know you are blessed, that you that there are good things that can come from you know your faith being under attack. And so I told him a little bit about how God can use persecution to really grow his faith and grow him in his walk with the Lord. And so I said, you know, what are the pros? Then he said, one of the things that I'm really excited about is getting to meet new friends and potentially invite them out to our middle school group when we started. And I said, Well, if you want to do this, I said, Me and mom are willing to let you make this decision. Most, most parents won't let you. Let their kids make this kind of decision for themselves, but we trust you, and because we trust you, we want to be able to give you a little bit more responsibility for where you can go to school. And so when I talked to my wife about it, I said, What do you think? And she said, Well, I mean, if he's going to take a spiritual risk, we can't say no. And so we decided to take that step. And, yeah, I mean, the rest was history. I mean, they started a couple months later, and kind of hit the ground running. Yeah, my experience with that was a little bit different. Because I definitely, I think you alluded to this, I made more of a push for this. My wife was actually pretty against it at first, because she had a really negative experience in public school. So she was kind of coming from like that's that was really bad for my own spiritual life in middle school. I went to Calumet for 11 years, so two, preschool, kindergarten and then first through eight. So we were having a pretty different perspective about that, that part of it. But then, yeah, I basically. Went to max. I didn't, you know, push too hard, but I was having some conversations and trying to, you know, get him to think about taking the risk. And as Conrad mentioned, he was actually pretty into it right away. But, you know, our family still had a lot of times where we were maybe not in full agreement. At first, one of the things I remember talking to max about was I was describing, I was like, we live in, you know, the bubble, like, you live in the bubble, okay, this is, like, everything's nice, and people are, you know, loving, and, you know, it's warm and it's safe and it's great, and kind of describing what it's like to be surrounded by, like, all, you know, nurturing, loving Christians all the time. And I was like, this is a, you know, wonderful privilege that we have. And I was like, but there's other people outside of that out here who are who are not part of that they don't even know God. And I was like, you know, I'm having this conversation like a fifth grader. And so I was like, What are we supposed to do about people who don't live in the bubble? And he was like, well, we should invite them to come and Nunn and into the bubble. And I was like, Okay, that is good. That's a good point. We definitely should do that. But also, how are they going to want to come in there? You know, they don't know anything about it. I was like, what if we go out of the bubble to where they are, and then we can kind of, you know, persuade them to, like, come into the community of God. And so I think that, like trying to put it in those basic terms for him at when he was, you know, 10 years old, or something like that, I think helped him understand, like, yeah, it's important to, like, go outside and, like, reach out to people. I also had the idea, just from my experience being in a high school group that that move when you've been at Calumet into high school can oftentimes be pretty shocking for students, because they've just never been around public school. They've never really been around non Christians, like in a large way, maybe here and there, but not being in the minority at a public school. And so I remember making that move. I've seen a lot of students make that move. Some people do great. Some of our very best students have come out of Calumet and just gone into a public high school and crushed it, but a lot of them have gone in, and there's been a lot of fear and timidity and kind of like uncertainty of knowing how to kind of swim, you know, in the deep end. So one of the thoughts that, you know, we talked about as a family was you're gonna have to make that leap. You're going to have to get outside of the comfort zone of like this private school and get into the world system, not be of the world, but be in the world in some way. So you can do that in high school, or you could do it in, you know, now, in middle school, and maybe potentially one, if we're being optimistic, one benefit is that by the time you make it to high school, you'll be more ready for that transition, because you already have friends, you already be you've already gone through the most awkward like I walked into a school and didn't know anybody at all and had to figure out how to make friends like you've already you've already done that, so potentially you'll be more prepared to be like, to thrive in high school. So that's that was something that was on my mind. But yeah, there was a lot of people, I think, that were pretty concerned about the move that I talked to. I tried to do, you know, some research on the schools, and try to do research on other families in our church who had, like, put their kids into middle school. And we also set up, you know, some things that we would like to see. For example, Conrad mentioned how Julius was really hungry spiritually, I felt pretty confident about Max as well. I felt like they were both actually like, into God. They were into, you know, talking with us about spiritual things. Really excited to reach out to people, um, you know, we talked as a family about like, we need to. We need to be pretty intentional about this move. So we need to, we need to set up regular prayer. We need to make sure that, you know, we get a good middle swim group going. And that was one of the reasons why we were like. I felt strongly like, if my kid is going to go into public school, and there's a lot of potential dangers there, I want to make sure to be as involved in his life as I can during that time, because if he's going to be exposed to like negative things and maybe influenced like that was a fear, I want to be able to have a pretty heavy influence too. And not only that, but if he starts bringing friends out from middle school, I want to be able to have an influence with them as well with his friends. So that was one of the biggest reasons why I was like, we're not just dropping him into public school and hoping it goes well, we're, we're going to be heavily involved with our kids lives in the middle school age. This is a crucial time. And so we were like, really, you know, talking about like, joining a middle school group. As leaders. Obviously, we have another friend, Alex Francis, who has a kid who's also like a part of our friend circle with our kids. And so he also was interested in joining the so group. So those were some of the three. And then there was actually Ben. Was another, the neighbor his parents earned well. So we had four kids, four students. Yeah, they were like, very seemed like, pretty strong. And we were like, Let's, let's try to basically start with that smaller core and then see if we can grow from there. One of the things you mentioned, I thought it was important, was, I think when you look at Julius and Max, they were in a unique situation where they're best friends, and two, they were both very spiritually minded, and they listened to each other too. And I think that was important because, to mention, because, you know, this was, there was a, it was a calculated risk for us to do this, and we wouldn't have done it unless we felt some level of assurance that there was going to be a support system around there where when temptation or negative influences might come come into the scene. And yeah, I mean, I'm sure that some parents probably looked at us and just thought, you know, you crazy. Why are you doing this? And you know, there were times where we had to calculate that risk, but we we knew our kids. We knew that they were spiritually minded, that we knew that they wanted to go into public school, not to just get away from Calumet, but actually to try and reach students that were going to that school. And so it wasn't really something that we we go around telling other parents like, You should do this. This is really a great thing, but it is different in the sense that not very many parents, I think, in dwell, who send their kids to Calumet take this route. And I know that, like you said, people were cautioning us and saying, you know, really worry about this. And we definitely had to take that input and pray about it and really think carefully about it. But again, it was a calculated risk, and part of what we were trying to do was we were trying to break our kids out of the bubble. I mean, it coincided with what, what you were saying about Max, where you were talking about the the bubble, the safety of the bubble. And, you know, around that time, me and Julius were talking a lot about like, this is the time where you have to learn how to do some hard things and trying to teach him resilience. Because one of the things that is really wonderful about growing up in the church is being surrounded by a loving family and loving friends. And it's easy to think that life is easy, that life is going to just go smoothly, and that you're never going to run into hard times. And you know, growing up in the world, not growing up in a Christian home, I experienced a lot of those things, and I think as a parent, one thing you want to do is you want to protect your kids from the things that maybe you experienced growing up. And yet, I learned valuable lessons from some of those difficult times growing up that have helped me, even today, and so me and Julius were talking a lot about, how can we put ourselves in a situation where we are uncomfortable and where we're pushing ourselves without putting ourselves in danger? And I was telling him, I said, you know, I want, I want to help you grow to the extent that when you see like something hard, something difficult, something that causes you to be afraid, that your natural inclination is to say, I'm going there. That's where I want to go. And so we were sort of having parallel conversations, I think, obviously tailored to our kids, but we both wanted to try to push our kids outside of the bubble, outside of their comfort, and to to do something kind of radical for their faith, because we knew that this was a really formidable time in their lives, and that, you know, this is where we needed to really exert ourselves in terms of leadership as parents. Yeah, it was definitely a risk, and it hasn't always gone perfectly. You know, some of the things that we wrote down on our we did a prison cons list as well. Some of the cons have happened. Some of the negative things you know about being in public school have taken place, but I made this point when we were kind of deciding as a family, I said, there's risk in doing this, but there's risk in not doing something like this. Because for me, one of the worst outcomes that i. Think of as a parent, as having a kid that is not radical for God, and I'm just like, I will do anything that I can do in my power, you know, to try to to advocate and push for my kid to not just simply be somebody who goes to, you know, church or whatever, but that really is going a lot for God. And I felt like this is, this is an opportunity give our kids a little bit ownership and making a big decision. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of, like, how it's gone since then, I think that there have been some negatives, but there's been a lot, probably more positives out of the move. And so I think that now as a family, we're like, okay, there was like, I remember, like, talking to Gloria, my wife, and she was just like, this has been a really good thing. And I was like, I'm glad that we, you know, took this risk. And I was, I was nervous at first, but now I see that God is using it in awesome ways. Yeah, it's really cool to get to kind of like, walk into that process, and to be able to hear that from you guys and see that this, these decisions that you're making, they're like, so monumental. They're so important. But to do it as a family, to not be haphazard, to be very prayerful, to even empower your kids, there's a lot of helpful stuff in there to hear. And from what I've observed, God has really blessed the move, because you went from this small cell group you started with to a group that's seeing like, you know, it started with like four, four to six. Now you're seeing like 1819, kids out a week. Like, so walk us through that. Like, you know, your kids go to public school, and they start bringing out their friends. And what's kind of happened that you're seeing so many kids come out so regularly? Yeah, well, it's been cool because they did, they did bring a lot of Dominion kids. But also, Julius was bringing out guys from the boxing gym, like, pretty much right away. That was one of the what that was, that was also like, you know, our group is called uppercut. We have all these boxers coming out. We were, you know, we'd watch some, like, you know, fight videos and stuff after cell sometimes at the beginning. So that was really cool. And then Max had some friends from the neighborhood and from basketball that he bring, brought out that didn't go to dominion. So we, like, it was really cool, because they they were thinking outside of even just dominion, like they were just wanting to reach out period, like everywhere they could. Then, in terms of going to dominion, it, man, just the combination of Julius and Max is really special, because they don't compete against each other and try to prove who's better which I give. I'm like, really proud of them for that, because I would not have been that that way as a middle schooler, I can just say that I wanted to be the best at everything in middle school, and I wanted to basically try to actively, like, push others down and put myself up. So I've actually been like, kind of watchful about that, like watching if they try to just take credit or, you know, put others down, like, you know, to make themselves look better. And I've just, I just don't see that with them. I don't know why that's the case. Praise God that that's the case. Max is extremely social. He's extremely bold. He just lacks, like, social anxiety at all. Like, will you just place him in anywhere among any kind of people, even people that are much, much different than him, and that's where he thrives. So he is, he is one that just, you know, kind of meets everybody and just, like, really gets energized by that. And I think, you know, having Julius there his, you know, just a great partner, and also pretty bull himself, they just basically went in there, and just Luckily, they were able to make a lot of this same friends, yeah, at the beginning, yeah. We, I think we, again, sort of independently, started trying to encourage our kids listen, the first week or two that you go to, like middle school, people are going to be looking around with their trays in their hands awkwardly, trying to figure out who are the kids that I'm going to be sitting with. And I think we were instructing them and saying, Listen, the first two or three weeks that you were in middle school is extremely important. You need to, like, go and initiate and to try to build friendships in the first two or three weeks, because these are probably going to be like the friends that you have, not only through sixth grade, but maybe throughout middle school. So I think we were very hands on and trying to instruct them on how to build friendships very early on, and that's exactly what happened. A lot of the kids that they built friendships with are the kids that ended up coming out to our cell group, and like you were mentioning, they're such a great team. It's funny because you. So when you look at the Dominion kids that they're bringing out, it's really hard to differentiate, like who brought that person out? Because when one of them makes friends with a person, the other actually befriends that same kid, and they kind of work together to try to follow up with this kid. And so they have sort of built a friend group at dominion that really is, is based on their teamwork and just them being extremely social. So it's, I think, that the teamwork aspect that you're talking about there is really the key to a lot of the success that we've seen is them working and coordinating and trying to reach these kids, and it's been a great duo. Yeah, I really do think it's something that God has done in their lives, because a lot of the kids in our cell group do compete about everything else. They're always arguing and challenging each other, and, you know, just doing 6/6, seventh grade voice stuff. But when it comes to the spiritual things and outreach, it seems like they're just like, okay, that's serious. Like, we should actually work together. Yeah, yeah. A funny story is that, like, I remember when at blowout camp they asked Julius to give his testimony. And so he shared about how, you know, fifth grade, he was really wondering whether or not he wanted to, like, go to dominion and the decision making process and everything else. And one of the guys that Julius and Max brought out, that had received Christ was actually there at blowout, and Julius had an opportunity to kind of just take credit and say, You know what, I brought this guy out and, you know, he became a believer in Jesus, but he was like me. And my friend Max started talking to him and trying to, like, have spiritual conversations. And I thought to myself, you know, those were those were those little moments are kind of indicative of their relationship. You know, the same thing with Max, too. I remember driving with him, and he was talking about this one kid in his class that he was becoming friends with, and he's like, oh man. He's like, this kid, he can draw. He's amazing at drawing. He's like, you know, I'm not trying to, like, cast any shade on Julius, because I think Julius is a really great artist, but this kid is just on a little, you know, he's on a different level. And just little things like that just kind of give you an idea of the kind of relationship that they have, that they are not competing with each other, but they actually want to help spur one another on, and that that that's true in spiritual things as well. It's really cool to hear about their friendship. I mean, that sounds like it's been a very critical component to their success. And a lot of what you guys are seeing, and that's that's great to hear so shifting gears a little bit and thinking about all these kids that have been coming out to your to your group. You guys have seen a lot of students come to Christ, and so I'm interested in hearing more about, like, maybe if you have stories you can share, or if there's just anything you want to say about the general spiritual receptivity in the middle school age. It seems like there's a lot of people who are spiritually curious at this age starting to take some ownership over their lives. Like, what have you guys observed from some of the kids you've been meeting? Yeah, well, a couple things on that. One we had, we set up this kind of weekly pickup basketball thing at first, and we kind of used that as, like, you know, you could either bring friends to this, and then they can, like, meet everybody, and then it'll be more comfortable to invite them to sell, or if they came out to sell, then they could start coming here and like, feel like more part of the friend group. So that was something that generated, like, a lot of excitement, and kind of just it was, I think it was really useful in follow up with the kids, so that they would want to keep coming back and just feel like this is really fun. And it was also good too for us, because we got to meet the parents. Yeah, that was that was extremely important in just being successful and in having these students come on a regular basis. Is when the kid were in the kids parents would drop them off. We would get to meet the parents, build a relationship, and so the parents got to see us. They got to see a face and a responsible adult there who's also a parent. And it was a it was a great tool that I mean, at the time, I didn't realize how effective it would be, but it has been super effective because it was a great entry point for a lot of these students who might have been otherwise hesitant to just step into a Bible study. Yeah, and what you said, Brian about the receptivity at this age, I remember hearing that too from like a Barna study or something. It was. Like this bell curve or something about, like, the average age of when people decide to, you know, start a relationship with Christ. And it was really high in the middle school ages. So I thought that coming into middle school and leading kids to Christ would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Yeah, and it wasn't. It was really slow. We did have, we did have one kid really early on who came to block camp and accepted Christ. But even then, like, it was, you know, we were having, like, a lot of talks with him every day. He, I think he finally did it on the very final day. And then after that, for the next year, the entire year, we didn't have a single kid accept Christ. And it was not from a lack of effort. I was like, Man, I'm trying to, like, have gospel conversations and go through analogies like the two cliffs or the Romans road or whatever, like every single week. And I'm being more bold in like, kind of, you know, kind of trying to lead students to Christ than, like, I can remember, because, you know, from being in like, a high school group or whatever, and there was, and there was a stretch to where it seemed like all of our leaders just all hands on deck every single ride, or every single time we would take kids home, we would be having conversations, just asking them where they stood with Christ, very direct conversations, and they would tell us straight up, like, actually, I don't think I'm ready to do that right now. I believe it. I think that that's probably true, but I'm not ready to do it. And there was a little bit of frustration, I think, for a while, because it seemed like so many of the kids that that were coming were right on, on the edge, right on the verge of receiving Christ, but just just were hesitating, oh yeah and yeah, straight up. Like I don't, I don't think I want to do that, you know? Now, one thing that we did talk about, you know, I think that there's, you know, many different ways to try to, like, help lead a kid to Christ in middle school. My personal, my personal, I guess, decision over this past year and change has been to try to encourage them to go home and do that on their own time. I just at first, I felt a little bit hesitant about saying, like, would you want to do that with me right now, just because I didn't want to make them say, like, feel like they had to say yes to me. But then later I was like, that's not working. They're not going home and doing it on their own. Maybe I can offer to pray with them. Well, then they didn't take me up on that either. We would have these conversations, and it would be, like, really good conversation, Matt, that was actually one of the coolest things, being with my own kid on the ride home. So whoever we dropped off last we're like, All right, that's like, who we're gonna try to have a spiritual conversation with. And he would help out. He would jump in and, like, share some things and try to, like, urge his friend to receive Christ. And that was, like, that was really kind of, yeah, just a proud dad moment, you know, there. And it was just like, man, that's, that's so cool. He, like, did that. And we would have multiple, multiple times where I was like, do, like, we would go read Scripture in the car together with a kid, like, show them a couple verses. Like, do you understand what this means? Yes, you know you should do. You should go inside tonight, before you go to bed, you should pray to receive Christ. And they'd be like, All right, yeah, I might do that. And so then we would be like, really excited praying as a family and stuff. The next time we take them home, be like, so do you remember the last time we talked, and it was like, No, not at all. And it was like their memory got erased. So it was like, we had to restart the whole thing again. So that was, like, really surprising and kind of frustrating at first. Or it'd be like, Yeah, I do remember that conversation and and I did, I did pray, and I was like, wow. Okay, yes, awesome. What? What was that like, like, what was your prayer like with God? And he's like, just pray that, you know, I wouldn't miss my alarm the next day at school or something like that. And I was like, see you. What about the stuff about like, you know, praying like, you know, Jesus is like death to, like, apply, you know, for your sins. And remember that at all? He's like, Yeah, I definitely did not talk about that. Yeah. We always talk about how, like, it takes, what, like, 65 times for somebody to hear the Gospel before they finally, like, understand it and accept it. And I mean, I feel like, with a lot of our kids, that was definitely true. We just had to keep reiterating the same thing over and over and over again, and eventually it started to sink in. But it was it took a lot of effort. It definitely took a lot of persistence. Yeah, I think the thing that you mentioned a little bit earlier about like doing that with Max that was very unique. I remember just kind of observing that, and you think about like with discipleship, or when you're. Trying to, like, help a younger guy or a younger woman that you're mentoring, like, actually learn how to share their faith. You know, one of the best things you can do is do a ride along, so to speak, where you bring them with you. You get into a good spiritual conversation. You can dissect it afterward and say, What do you think? What happened there? Why do you think I said this? Or what do you think he meant by this? Or how do you think he responded to that? And those are like, extremely like valuable moments, right? And to see you do that with Max like, over and over again almost every week where you're sitting down with a student that he brought out, and being able to sort of explain the gospel and various different ways, and having Max jump in was, I mean, it was amazing. I mean, those are the kinds of moments that in leadership or in discipleship are so valuable and so so, like, life changing. Yeah, we eventually got, I mentioned Francis, who also led with us. We eventually got another guy from the young adult ministry named Dylan, who came in to help us out. And I felt like, fast forward, like, a year into the group or so, you know, we had been having a lot of these gospel conversations and really trying to, like, you know, push for kids to receive Christ, especially, like in our teachings, we would talk about that, like, go hard every single teaching in the gospel. But then when those guys came in, they were also really useful, because they were able to, and maybe this is a spiritual gifting thing, or what, I don't know, but they were able to also, like, just come in and leads kids to Christ, and it, it was really cool, because it the whole thing we talked about earlier with Max and Julius having teamwork, not trying to take credit. And that's, that's also something that has been awesome on our leadership team. Yeah, you know, it's not like that. We're just like, First Corinthians three. You know, it's like, I planted a polished Water God is one of the causes of growth. And we kind of have some of that synergy going on where, like, you know, maybe this guy, Dylan, is like, better at leading kids to Christ, but, you know, also, like, that's also a kid that, you know, we've also invested in for a long time. So having that kind of teamwork on on our leadership team has, has actually really, that's when it started to really kind of snowball. It was, it was funny. It was like, nothing, nothing, nothing, actual resistance, like, I don't want to do that. And then right around camp block camp, one or two of the kids finally did it. Finally received Christ. And then it was just like dominoes, after that moment, right there, really, over the past, yeah, over the summer, I can't remember the full number was something like 12 kids pray to receive Christ, and it was just like, amazing. And it was not only the relief just like to know that they received Christ, but you know, a lot of these kids that Julius and Max were bringing around and others too. I mean, it wasn't just those two, but so many of them were coming from really rough backgrounds, lower income backgrounds, mostly single parent homes. A lot of them just really struggled in life. Had a lot of tragedy for kids who are, you know, 12 or 13 years old in their lives, yeah, like, one, one example was a kid, it was like, Yeah, my my dad died of a drug overdose. And then one of the other kids like, oh, yeah, me too. Like, just that, that story. And there's, like, a bunch of others like that, yeah, they're just like, whoa. And, you know, a lot of those kids just had, like, just legitimate trauma in their lives. And so I think it was a relief for us knowing that, like they were gonna go to heaven because they placed their faith in Jesus. But at the same time, we're also excited for the Holy Spirit to, like, actually be in their lives and to influence them, because there was just so much drama for months, 100% so much drama that we had to deal with. And what's amazing is that, what's almost six months later, so many of these kids have just, they've they've grown in their faith. They're transformed. And we're, we're hearing from, like, some of the other leaders at the middle school, CT, they're just like, Oh, your kids are really, like, well behaved. Because how you know they remembered how bad they were and just how unruly they were at CT before they were actually believers? Yeah, wow, that's amazing, and really cool. What the Holy Spirit's doing in your midst. So God's done a lot of great spiritual work. I know also part of spirituality is having a lot of fun, and I think that middle school group has got to be a really good time. So I wondered if you guys could maybe share some some experiences there, what it's been like to be with a bunch of 1112, 13 year olds and and what kind of fun experiences you've had with them so far. Yeah, definitely just active, you know, just got a coming home on a middle school night, you were pretty tired, and there's a satisfaction of, like, all right, it's like a hard day's work kind of thing. But yeah, definitely feeling like, man, we got to chase. It's like, herding cats at times. So you are like, just, you know, running around and, you know, doing stuff all night. That's one, that's one reason why the car ride home can actually be pretty crucial. Because you're like, well, now you're forced to sit so although that's hard too, because a lot of times they're on their phone, yeah, so that's like, I have to, you have to, you have to rip them away from their phone so, or they, like, want to grab the ox chord and, like, blast their music. So it's just impossible sometimes to have conversations. Unless you just pull the plug, we're gonna have a conversation here. Yeah. I mean, my experience is similar, you know, at the end of some days, like when we have middle school CT or cell group, it's been a long day, and I just, you know, will sink into my couch and I'm just smoked, you know, it's like, maybe midnight. Obviously, the night ends earlier than that. But sometimes I'm just like, man, I've been going hard for like, 1213, hours, and definitely feel exhausted. But when I look at what I've done that day, I realized, okay, much of what I've done is in line with my values, and I'm actually making an impact. And so there's a sense of satisfaction, like, Okay, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, but at least I'm expending my energy on something that really matters, something that's actually having an impact, not just on my kid, but also on his friends and so, yeah, I think that, like, it's at times, been frustrating, it's exhausting, but it's a lot of fun. And I know having like these other leaders there, who are, you know, younger than me, play sports is helpful, because a lot of our kids are really active. You know, sometimes I'll play kickball with them, and I joke about how, like, I probably only have like, a few more kickball games left in me, and I've like, burned all the matches in middle school group. But I'll come home sometimes, you know, after rounding the bases in like, kickball, and just be like, I think I tore my ACL shout out to like, Dylan, who's like, 22 and just, you know, he's, he's, he's willing to, like, just jump in with the guys and be active and be rowdy. So, yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. With kickball, a couple times we'll do like, leaders verse, and it's always so funny, because they're like, You guys are gonna, are you like, Are you sure you want to do that? Because we're gonna crush you, because you guys are dinosaurs and you're so old and stuff. Yeah, let's try it. And then, you know, one of us will just, like, blast the ball, like, way beyond, like, what they're ready for, just round the bases. And then they're all like, oh, bread's being modest. It's him. So then we get to talk a little trash. That's always, you know, good nature, but it's always pretty fun. And then, obviously, with basketball, actually, at first, it's really difficult, because playing basketball with middle schoolers is about 90% screaming at each other about fouls and the rules and the rules, and not, like, actually playing the game. So that that took a while, like, get, get them to, like, actually learn how to actually have fun while playing basketball, we took the kids up to Cleveland for our retreat last year and watched the Cavs game. That was a lot of fun. We do some other games to like, you know, we played football. We've we've done played this game called Team tag that I remember from when I was in middle school. So group that I used to love, where a lot of the kids had to go out and hide, and then they had to make it back to base without getting tagged. And so a lot of times, if you as a leader are enthusiastic about how sweet this is going to be, the kids will basically be into it, yeah. So we're not like, hey, well, what do you guys feel like doing? Sometimes, we'll have to basically come up with the ideas, which isn't always easy to know, like, what is going to be fun tonight? We do end up doing a lot of the same stuff. Yeah, we do. I mean, the kids like to hoop a lot, and, you know, Brett's Brett's pretty good, so they're always playing, and I'm good compared to middle schoolers, yeah, but I will join like, you know, a touch football game or whatever, and I'm usually all time Qb, and the kids are always trying to roast me. Call me old, and they actually call me aging Rogers. That's funny. That's good. Well, you know, that's an a good, a good segue, talking about the the toll on your physical body. I'm sure that's just one of many sacrifices. You know, you guys are making. Me You guys are busy people. You're you're like Brett, you lead in a college group, a high school group, Connor, you're leading the college group. You're both elders. You both have full. Time job, you have other kids like, and you're spending all this time doing this, like, could you talk us through a little bit some of like, the sacrifices you guys feel like you've had to personally make, and why you find that worth it for the sake of investing in these students and in your kids in this way. I mean, I definitely feel like well, one just having experience doing student ministry for a long time, knowing some of the basics. But also, like, I feel like, when our kids were little babies, you know, I hope that I was helpful to my wife, but she was really that was, like, she was amazing at that stage, and I tried, you know, to pitch in, like, when I could and like, in certain ways, but I didn't feel super confident as a parent at that time. But I feel like this is my time to step up, yeah, and my time to shine as a parent. Because, you know, I this is like, I know how to relate to younger students because I've been in student ministry for so long, so I feel like this is my opportunity as a parent to really step up and to, yeah, just try as hard as I can. And part of the thing of just realizing like this is going to go by pretty quick, we don't have another chance to try again. There's no time later in terms of sacrifices. Yeah, we're totally busy. It's insane. I took a nap at the office today, you know? I We're tired. I don't always know how it's going to work. I do feel like just part of being really busy is trusting God. I hope that doesn't just sound like a overly, like super spiritual response, but I just, I feel like, you know, we're in God's will, and he'll provide the energy to continue doing this, and he'll, like, provide us with what we need. And we do. We do like, also make sure that we're spending time with our kids individually every week. We feel like that's really important. We try to take some family trips, you know, throughout the year, to build, like, family togetherness and have a foundation there, you know, me and my wife totally feel like we're doing this as, like a tag team. Hillary has been super helpful as well. So the wives are involved. They're, they're not just kind of sitting by and watching. They're they're really, like, instrumental in making this all work. Yeah, Hillary's like, kind of like the the logistics Master, you know, she's always sending out, like, ride lists for every meeting and coordinating stuff. So, yeah, the you know, our wives are not just sitting on the sideline doing nothing. I mean, they're definitely serving and sacrificing. They're making meals. They're giving rides. Sometimes, when me and Brett are out of town for work or something, they're stepping up and actually going to them. They go to middle school. CT, when we're not available and we'll, like, literally play sports with the middle school boys. It's actually amazing and like, but we, you know, we view this as like, this is part of our family time, right? This is not in competition with our family time, because we're with our sons, and so we view this as part of our family time, time that we're spending with our kids. But we also have to sort of balance like we've got other kids as well, and want to make sure that they realize like we we care a lot about them and their spiritual development, and just want to spend time with them too. So it definitely can create some tension there, but, but I think if you're smart with your time and just make sure to prioritize the things that you value. You can make it all fit, because, you know, the Lord's the Lord when, when you set out to do something like this, you know, like Brett said he's going to provide. And there are times when we're exhausted, when we feel the time crunch, but at the end of the day, you know, we make it all work, because, you know, when we set out to do the things of God he's going to provide for us, it's really cool. Okay, so why don't we, um, wrap your thinking about a couple, like, maybe just if you guys had any words of wisdom or advice for people, I was thinking about kind of two different segments of people who are in our church maybe listening to this, like, for one, I think that we've got some like parents who have kids who are starting to approach this age range, and they're trying to think for themselves, like, what do I need to do to get ready for my kid to go to middle school? You know, join a middle school cell group, things like that. So I wonder if you guys had any wisdom you'd like to share from your experiences to people listening that could help them as far as taking that journey themselves. Their kids get into the middle school age range, well, don't, don't wait till middle school to start having spiritual conversations with your kid. That would be one thing for sure. We were absolutely that's one of the. Is why I think Connor and I both felt, you know, at least somewhat confident in sending our kid to a public school, is because we felt like they actually had demonstrated spiritual receptivity and like, actually cared about God. Well, you know, that was from years and years of talking about spiritual things and doing prayer together and like, you know, I would take my kids long, and sometimes Conrad and his family would join when we would go into like, different neighborhoods in our city to do like, volunteer work and serving, you know, other people, I'd want to bring my kids along when we're out there serving. And you know, we would do like, for example, we would do, like, a summer camp in a different ministry for refugees. And I was like, I want to get my kids into that, because I want them to understand how important it is to serve, and like to feel some joy. And serving is fun. It's not just this, like, scary thing all the time. Yeah, and obviously, Gloria is really good about, you know, getting individual time with kids and, like, being really good at, like, having good, intentional conversations. We were trying to get our kids into the word in different creative ways, and trying to do that, you know, it's, it's, it's different. But in in the elementary school age, like, you can really get some awesome spiritual stuff going on with your kids before they get into middle school. Yeah. I mean, we all we realize that, like a lot of parents, are just really busy, right? And the the thought of adding middle school ministry to an already busy schedule seems like a lot, but again, I think it was a Barna study that I encountered, or at least it was maybe a podcast that he was speaking on, and he was talking about how a lot of kids, when they hit middle school age, are making some pretty big decisions about their spiritual life. And he found that a lot of kids who when he interviewed them, I think when they were in college, said that it was around around the time that they were in middle school when they started to have a lot of questions about the Bible. Had a lot of questions about whether God existed, and they felt like if they didn't have their questions answered in a satisfactory way that the ones who felt as if they didn't get good answers were just sort of biding their time through high school so that when they get into college, when they got into college or got out of the house, they could just basically do what they wanted to do and not follow God, whereas the ones who got satisfactory answers when they were in middle school, went on to have really strong spiritual lives, even after they graduated from high school. And for me, that was very instructive, because it fit with a lot of like conversations I had with older men who I view as my mentors, that they were saying, you know, I didn't realize until my kids were grown, how much influence I had with my kids. And I think if I realized that how formative this period of time is, middle school especially, I probably would have tried to influence them more and to try to, like, really be thoughtful about how to equip them and get them ready for being in the world, but still maintaining their faith. And so the combination of those things really kind of lit a fire under me, to try and really take it seriously that like this, this time period in my son's life is extremely crucial, not only for his spiritual development, but development in always. I mean, you think about like the music that you sort of associate with your childhood. A lot of times, it's like stuff that you were listening to when you're in middle school, right? And a lot of the memories that you have of just difficulty and hardship and growing pains. A lot of that comes from middle school. And so what I can't think of a better time for a parent to really come in and try to exert a lot of influence and leadership in their their kids life, than in middle school. And so I think that was one of the reasons why I thought it was really important for me to lead and to try and help shape Julius and his spiritual outlook. And two, it was great to have, you know, people like Brett and Alex and Dylan there, because they got to play a role as well. Like one of the things that we sort of decided beforehand is that going into middle school group, we would want, you know, the other dad to disciple our kids. And we were going to sort of do a round robin, where the first year, you know, I would disciple or mentor Max and Alex Francis would mentor Julius. And then. And Brett would mentor Eli, and then we would sort of switch, because we felt like it would be good for our kids to have other strong, spiritual men in their lives who they view as authority figures, and not just have to have Dad, just, you know, up, you know, just, just getting on them all the time. So, yeah, I think that those, those sorts of things were, were really important considerations for joining a middle school group and doing it with my son. Yeah, I actually spent some time interviewing guys I knew in the college ministry who had come up, like, through the middle school group and who had, like, continued to walk God as adults. And a lot of them were in middle school groups with their dads, and I was like, what was, you know, did you like that? Did you kind of not like that, you know? And try to just ask a bunch of questions. And I was pretty surprised that it was almost a almost across the board. They were like, I loved, I loved being there. My dad was awesome. There was a couple guys that are like, Yeah, I didn't. They didn't really like that, but most of the time they were like, that was really cool. And then I was like, you know, trying to be like, What? What can you give me some input, since I might do this? And one of the things that they said was like, I would, I would love being with my dad. Super fun. He was, like, a great role model for for God, but there were some things that I maybe didn't really want to share with him. You know, for example, like in the middle school age, you're getting into puberty, they're like, I didn't I never would talk to my dad about anything regarding, like sexuality or porn or anything like that. That would be like, No way. And I was like, that makes some sense to me as a middle schooler, not wanting to do that. So that's where that was just one example. But why it's like, if, if there's another trusted leader who my son can feel like they can go and open up to and talk about things that they wouldn't talk with me about, or even potentially, like frustration or conflicts. You know, at home, there's another guy there who's an influence and that was a cool, really cool advantage. I felt like when I was in middle school, I was in a really awesome cell group. In middle school group had Dave Glover and Steve Bauer were my cell group leaders, and it was super fun, and I totally trusted those guys and would be willing to talk to them. They had a huge influence on my life and through the middle school group. So, um, having some other adults that were not just my dad, I think was, it was good. It was like a really cool thing. Um, so anyway, yeah, that was, yeah. And, you know, so, for example, Julius, he actually meets with Alex Francis. And you know Alex is is we have some similarities, but he's a very different person. He's got some incredible strengths that I'm not super strong in, and like having Julius meet with him has been really, really good for him, and it's just good to see too, that like being a spiritual man, being a godly man like it doesn't mean that you're like you have to be in this cookie cutter, right? You have very different people who are extremely effective, who you can look at and say, You know what? I don't have to be like my dad. I don't have to be like these people I can, I can be my own person and be effective for God and be spiritual. And so that was sort of the effect that it's had on on my son, as well as, I think Max's too. Yeah, I was thinking about just one point that I've seen from my college group. So, you know, when new guys come out. Maybe we're after the teaching talking, and get into a spiritual conversation. It is so frequent for people to like an agnostic person who does not follow God or believe in God, they might have some sort of distant church memory from when they were younger. And a lot of times with people like that, it was kind of negative. It was either really bad or just like, Yeah, I did it, but it's so boring, and I didn't care, and I don't remember anything, and I never believed in it. And it was just like, going to church was, like, kind of a chore. And like, well, you know, did you ever have a group of friends around your age? Yeah, I went to the youth group was so it was lame, was boring, didn't like, it didn't make a difference in my life. So a lot of times in those conversations of, like, man, that's, that's really, that sucks, like that that happened, you know, for you, I, I didn't have that because I came up and it was a great experience. I feel so, like, happy about, you know, my experience, and following, God, even from a younger age. And so, yeah, I'm kind of, that's one of my big things about middle school group should be super fun and kind of create the category. And a student like, walking with God is fun. And it's not this thing that you grow up later and you're like, Man, I can't wait to get out of this. It's like, this is just sweet. And I do. I absolutely feel like. Being in a spiritual family, growing up like my parents were doing ministry and they were having people over, and, you know, we were doing Bible study and middle school, like, um, there was just like, this is normal, and this is good. This is, this is something that I am not against. I like this. You know, obviously, when I got a little bit older in high school, I did dig through, like, deeper questions and had problems and whatnot. But, like, generally, I came up and felt like walking with God is a really a good thing. And I want to, I want to do that for my kids, so that that's part of feeling like I can take a lot of the good from my upbringing and try to, you know, use that to my advantage now, yeah, I think the other category too. Of you know, people who are, you know, maybe considering a secondary ministry who are not parents, maybe people who are like young professionals, or maybe college age people who are interested in what's happening in middle school group. Because, like you said, it is the fastest growing ministry in the church, and I think that with the momentum, there's a certain level of excitement that comes from that, that people are interested in maybe joining in on what's happening in this ministry. I would say that for me, you know, even somebody who's been doing ministry now for 25 years, middle school ministry has been tough. I mean, it's stretched me in a positive way. Like a lot of the things that I've learned, the basic principles of ministry are still there, but the application with middle school ministry has been totally different, like teaching college age people is totally different than teaching middle schoolers. I mean, we're talking about 20 minute 25 minute teaching Max with maybe a couple discussion questions, and that's all you're gonna get. And that's pretty tough for me to do. Like to provide actual content that is is satisfying in 20 minutes. And so it has really stretched me, and I think it's grown me as a leader. And so what I would say to somebody who is maybe a prospective middle school leader is, this is a way for you to stretch yourself, and God's going to use that to make you an even better Christian worker. But two, I think that you know some people who feel a little bit stuck in their ministry, who feel like maybe, right now, I'm kind of in a field where I'm not really getting a lot done. And I remember, you know, when in my younger days, when I used to get a lot more done for the Lord, this is like a ministry that can really help reinvigorate your fire and your zeal for God, and I know that's done that for me, even though there are some days I come home and I'm just spent so I think that it's a great opportunity to jump in on what God is doing, but it's not going to be easy. It's going to take a sacrifice. But in the end, you're not going to look back and be like, Man, I really regret wasting that time, those three years, you know you're when you see all the students and the fruit that's going to be born from that effort and that commitment, I think that it's going to be one of those cherished memories of man that was such a great time in my life. And, you know, middle school ministry was the thing that kind of got me through a kind of difficult time where I wasn't getting as much done in ministry as I'd like to. Man, that's awesome. Well, um, thank you guys. It's been great. Thanks for having us. Yeah, it's been, it's been great to hear so thank you so everyone who's been listening in um, of course you can go to dwell cc.org for more information about our middle school ministry or about Doyle Community Church at all. We encourage you to subscribe wherever we get your podcast, to get notifications on future episodes, and thank you for joining us for this episode of do all these things.