Welcome to dwell on these things. My name is Brad default, and it is my pleasure to host today with a special guest, Chris Risley, who's going to be covering some content that she has taught in a class recently that I absolutely loved. I listened to it a couple times. I've tried my best to apply it, you know, imperfectly here and there. I've recommended it constantly to people. And here she is. Say, Hello, hey everybody. And so the class is on habits. And I figured first, if you would, would like to kind of tell us some of your experience and how it relates to this material. Sure, yeah, this is material that I really have a strong burden for, because it's not an area that comes naturally to me at all. I did not grow up with many healthy habits. I was very different temperamentally from both of my parents. They're both pretty organized and driven, and I think they just didn't really know how to help a lazy, unmotivated kid. So I kind of carried those patterns on into my adulthood. I didn't become a Christian until I was in my early 20s, and so by the time I became a believer, I had completely destroyed my finances through really unwise choices. I was significantly overweight due to bad eating habits, regular fast food, eating out almost every single meal. I had already failed out of Ohio State because I had just lacked the motivation to get up and go to my classes, and then I became a believer and moved into a ministry house with a bunch of other Christian girls. Then ran into the problem where I couldn't hold down a job because I kept quitting before they would fire me, and then I managed to fail out of Columbus State as well for the same problem that I just could not get to the classes on time. And it's interesting, because I've done a lot of reading on how habits develop, how spiritual growth works, and I found that the reading that I was doing was showing that I had already figured out, kind of intuitively, some of the ways to trick myself into practicing the right things. And so then when COVID hit, and people were really struggling in their personal lives. Pat, reader suggested putting together a class with some practical material, and I was really excited to share some of the things that God had shown me and things I had learned over the years. Excellent. Well, thank you, Pat. If you're listening, this has been really great material. Yeah. So that's a really interesting background to go. Kind of swing from one extreme to the other. I don't know if you're comfortable with me saying that you're on the other extreme now, but yeah, I think it's, it's amazing what God has done in your life, and also the ways that God has used this material in countless other people's lives too. Yeah, he's very gracious, yes indeed. So with that, would you mind walking us through some of this content? Sure, yeah, the first thing I wanted to start with is just the idea of what is self control. You know, there's a lot of books that are published out there that promote how to develop self control, how to find the self control that you have within and it's really interesting, because when we turn to the Bible, it has a very different perspective. You think about Galatians five, that self control is actually a fruit of the Spirit, and so it's something that God develops in us, as opposed to something that we have to muster up ourselves. Or you turn to First Corinthians nine, where Paul says, Everyone who competes in the games exercises self control in all things. And is that something, again, that we have to develop ourselves? Well, it turns out that when we turn to the actual word that's used here, the Greek word, that yes, in Greek philosophy, this was like the pinnacle of maturity, that a person could have self control. But then, when it comes to the Bible, is it that we are controlling ourselves? Notice that God has control of us, and he's the one that gives us direction. And so instead of us trying to figure out what to do and how to develop this, instead what we do is we come under his guidance, his training, and that he will be the one to show us how to figure out the steps forward that will bring areas of our life under his control. Okay, interesting. So, I guess with that, so what level of usefulness is there in like kind of the self control or habits, literature or wisdom that's out there that isn't biblically based? Well, you know, they get into how change works and how habits work, which are really helpful for me. I think the main difference between the biblical approach and the secular approach are in three areas. One is, what is the power source? Is it my own willpower? And of course, they've done a ton of research that shows willpower runs out really quickly. And so then what do we have the power source of the Holy Spirit? So we have an infinite power source that we can turn to. The next thing that's different is our motivation. Is it that I want to be a person who's really successful, who has every area of my life under control, so that I can manage everything? Or is it that I want to become more available to be used by God? I think that's a different kind of motivation. And then finally, the outcome. There are people who are worried about developing more self control, because I think there's really negative connotations with that word, if it goes too far. You know, they think of like Angela from the office, who has all of her pens in order and gets really upset if anything gets messed up in her life. It turns out that biblical self control, what it does is it frees up more and more of my life to be able to love other people. Because when my life is out of control, I always feel stressed out. I always feel like I'm playing catch up. So if I could develop habits so that there's less of my personal life to worry about, that means more of my heart, more of my mind, is available to think about other people, awesome. So that was the three could you run back through those three differences again? It was power source is the Holy Spirit. Our motivation is to become more available, to be used by God, and then the outcome is we become more loving people. Awesome, yeah, that's that's great, because then it also seems like we could take any kind of insights that any researcher or thinker has come up with and also incorporate that, you know, as long as we're doing so discerningly, yes, Yep, yeah, the top book that I would probably recommend is called atomic habits by James clear, yes, that's a good one, very readable. He comes from a really humble perspective. He talks a lot about how change works, but then, like you said, it just does not incorporate the spiritual aspect. And I think that gives us a real benefit. It gives us a good, godly perspective, and it helps us stay under grace as well. Nice. You would take clear over Duhigg. You know, you quote Duhigg a lot in your class. I just remember the name. If you read the book, try Duhigg, Power of Habit. It is really great. It explains a lot of things. It gives you some really good nuggets as to how change works or doesn't work. I just found atomic habits to be a little bit more practical. And so that one is probably the one that I would start with. Excellent. Yep, yeah. So from there, you know, I came up with a pattern that I've noticed that people fall into, and then an alternative pattern. So I describe what I call the cycle of failure. And this is not anything especially profound. It's just what I've noticed in my life and what I've noticed in other people's lives. Sounds really great, yes, and I contrast it with the cycle of hope. But the cycle of failure. You know, it's I see an area where I want to grow and change, and so then I kind of vaguely think about what I would like to do different, and then I immediately set out to tackle the area, but then I dropped the ball once or twice, which means I feel terrible about myself, and I beat myself up, but I don't talk to anyone about it, and then it ends with me deciding I'm just a hopeless failure, and I never try in that area again. So I saw this, you know, if I wanted to get to classes on time, well, okay, that means that I should probably set an alarm. And so I would, you know, get a new alarm clock, and I would put it beside my bed, and I would make sure it was nice and loud. But then there would be those mornings where I would either forget to set the alarm or I would try to snooze it, but instead I would turn it off, and then I would wake up two hours later and I'm like, well, the day is totally shot, but I felt so embarrassed about it that I would never admit to anybody else what had happened. And then I would be like, well, I guess I'm just not gonna ever go to that class again, and that's how I end up failing some of my classes. Yes, that is extremely relatable. I've, I've often thought of it as the person at night setting the alarm is not the same person who wakes up in the morning. Yes, in my case, yes, any anything could happen if the consequence of me getting too much sleep, and it just doesn't matter, yep, you know, Yep, yeah. So that's that's tough, yeah. So then the cycle of Hope just has a different slant on these things, and it doesn't start with an area where I want to grow and change. Instead, what's great about spiritual growth is it starts with feeling convicted by God that there's something that he wants to do in my life. Then I can ask God for that positive vision, like, what would it look like if I was actually able to succeed in this area? And how would that help? But then the next important piece is to go and talk to some other people now, to include people in what is that I want to do? There's a there's a humility, there's a vulnerability to that. But then what's nice about that is you get people's support and prayer, and you sometimes get really good ideas from people as to things that they've tried. But then instead of jumping into what I would like to do, I really encourage people to start with some reading and some prayer on the area that they would like to tackle, because that deepens our convictions as to why this is a good thing and an important thing, and then from there, to try to set some small goals. That's one thing that's going to come up over and over our discussion is we have to set small goals, small steps, trusting that there will be more steps after that, but to not to start too big. And then, as I'm trying to accomplish those goals, to stay open with people about the progress, but also about the setbacks, because we're not going to succeed every time, but the times we do succeed, we can be honest about those too, and we can celebrate with people. And then, as we go through those steps, we find that after a period of time, God has brought about some remarkable change. And you know, it's not in the first week or two. It might not even be in the first month or two, but then six months later, we look down the road and we're like, oh, things are different, yeah. And then, you know, when I look at my life, and I'm 25 years down the road from when I first became a believer, I described to people what my life used to look like, and they they can't even believe it. Kind of don't believe you actually, yeah, it's such a miraculous change, but it was little bit by little bit, and that I really believe, you know, the the motto of this class is often small changes lead to big changes. And nothing in my life changed overnight. Nothing even changed in the course of a year or two. It took years. It took decades. And that could seem discouraging, but we want to put that out there up front, that it takes a long time to change, but the slower we take the change, the more permanent that it is nice. Yeah, so it seems like it would be really tempting to jump to the goals, yes, part of that, and skipping, what, skipping, what seems to me kind of a relational side, yes toward God and toward other people, and then also, kind of a foundational belief side of taking that to, like looking into the word, getting into prayer before God, on those things, what? What do you lose if you skip straight to making goals? That's a great question. I really believe that we in Western culture, are so autonomous and just feel like we have to handle things on our own. And there's a big community that God has placed us into that can be there for support, for encouragement. I really fear opening up, because I think, well, I'm the only one that has this problem. And then when I start talking to people, they either have a very, very similar problem that they also are feeling bad about, or they have a different problem, but it's the same root in that there's something about God or His power that we're not believing in. Yeah. So opening up to people enables me to realize I'm not the only one that has this problem, which can be really helpful. And then it has the cool side effect of also enabling other people to be open about where they're struggling, and then then we can all support each other. So I think that's that's an overlooked but really important facet of change nice, that's awesome. And then a nice side effect is the relationships themselves would be stronger as well. Yes. Now what I don't like about it, and I'll be honest about this, is it does also include some accountability. I tell people, you know, I've set my alarm and I want to wake up the next morning, they're going to ask me, were you able to wake up? And there are times where I do not want to acknowledge that I failed to meet that goal. But I also find that as much as I'm afraid of the accountability, people are really gracious, because I have yet to meet a person who always succeeds in everything they set out to do. And part of what we want to do is normalize the ups and downs right of trying to affect some life change, yeah, yeah. And then it's not I'm trying to build these good habits while also wrestling with my self image of, Am I crazy? Am I the only one? Yes, yeah, yeah, yep. And then when it comes to spending time in Word and prayer, you know, a big part of it too is that there are certain things that I think, that I believe, but it's a really surface belief. What I need to do is build those deeper convictions that this actually is a good thing and a healthy thing. So for example, I am not somebody who likes to work hard if things are fun or if they're easy, I really gravitate towards those. But if it's going to be difficult, if it's going to be long term, if it's going to require a lot of decisions, I avoid stuff like that. So then, when I turn to the Word and I see, you know, right from the very beginning of creation, God created work, and work is a good thing, and he designed us to be hard workers, and he's given us responsibility, and that's actually part of being a spiritually mature person. Then I realized that it's not just getting myself to do something that I don't want to do, but if I can go in this direction of how God originally designed. Me, I'm going to be way happier and more fulfilled. I feel like if I can avoid work, then I'll be more relaxed. And it's like, that's not actually the way that it works, because that's not how God has designed us. So it's convictions like that that enabled me to actually hang in there through the ups and downs. Nice. Yeah. It makes me think of the description of serving others and walking by the Spirit as freedom. Yes, from Galatians five that this is what freedom looks like to us. And I've thought of it as like. Freedom to a fish looks like being in water. Yes, freedom to us made in God's image looks like being connected with God and serving Him. That's like how we flourish. Yes, yeah. So many times we've heard it called the backwards wisdom of God, and I find that I have to be reminded of God's wisdom over and over, because if I just go back to my own wisdom, it will end up leading to choices and behaviors that are not going to be fulfilling and that can actually be kind of destructive in the long run. Yeah, nice. Well, do you have any kind of practical steps for us, like, if there's a couple things you'd want listeners to take away here and here in the new year, when we're all thinking about habits more than usual, yeah, I wanted to start with an actual definition of what a habit is. This is from that Power of Habit the Duhig book. He says habits as they are technically defined are just choices that all of us deliberately make at some point and then stop thinking about but continue doing often every day. So it's the idea that we want to set up certain habits that in the beginning we have to choose to do, but eventually become kind of automatic. And in that book, he gives the fascinating example of what it's like to get into your car and back the car out of the garage, and how there's actually, you know, maybe 100 different decisions that you're making, but after you do it a certain number of times, all of those become kind of subconscious to you. And this is really what we try to do for a lot of different areas of our lives, because our brains are actually very lazy. They hate making decisions. So if we can, you know, routinize some areas of our lives that we're making fewer decisions that can actually lead to an easier life, because we're not always trying to get ourselves to do something that we don't want to do. So as I give a couple of ideas and also explain how change works. I just want to say up front that this is not here's the easy steps that you need to follow, or here's what I do. Therefore, just copy this. I try to share some examples, but only as examples to create some, you know, ideas for people to spark their own creativity, because everyone's life is different, and everyone's approach is going to be different, and I see people having successful habits in a multitude of different ways. So there's no one right way to do this. So I just wanted to start with how easy it is to misdiagnose what the problem is as we're running into areas that want to change. So there's a couple different ways that we misdiagnose the problem, and one is that we personalize it, like there's something wrong with me. Okay? So, for example, during COVID, I was feeling really bad about my lack of focus. During prayer time, I would try to pray, and I would end up just, you know, looking around the room and, oh, I'm gonna pray, but I'm gonna put the dishes away really quickly. You know, all the things that we do to get away from prayer, and I was just like, Man, I'm just not focusing. I need to focus. Try. It's harder to focus. But then I realized, if I could just shift part of my morning routine, what I was doing was I was getting my word time, and then I sat down to breakfast, and that's when I would pull up my email and start reading, you know, and get, like, a New York Times daily email. And then I would try to go back to prayer. Those tended to not be very uplifting. In 2020 no New York Times No, no. And I, you know, I'm a news junkie in general. So during 2020 I was, you know, always checking the news. And it was helpful to realize, okay, yes, I should always grow and focus in prayer. But what if, instead of going from word time to email to prayer time, what if I just swap number two and three so I would do my word time and then I would do my prayer time, and then I wouldn't get on email until after that, and that fixed a lot of the focus problem. So instead of making it really personal, I looked at the situation that I was in, and I was able to change that. But did you ever get around to your email, though, is the you know, I always managed to get to my email, don't I? Excellent. Yes, yes. Win, win, yeah. So then misdiagnosing, the problem is one way, another thing that we get wrong is, again, like we talked about, we failed to do it with friends. So finding a way to include other people in what it is that we are trying to accomplish can be really helpful. So I'm somebody who understands the importance of exercise. Eyes, but for many years, struggled to get any sort of regular exercise habit. And one of the easiest things that I can do is to go for a run. But the hard part about running is that, before you get used to running, running sucks and it just feels bad the whole time. And the way that you can stop feel bad, feeling bad is you just stop running, right? Yeah. So I would go for a run, and I'm like, this sucks. And then I would just stop running fix this thing I'm feeling right now, yes. And then just walk home and I'm like, Well, that was lame. And so my husband offered to go running with me, and I thought, well, that might be ridiculous, because I'm not quite five four, and he's about six five. How many of your steps to his steps? Like a Great Dane with the Chihuahua. It probably looked ridiculous, but he's like, No, let's do this together. It was when our kids were little, and he would put him in the jogging stroller, and so he would push the stroller, which would give him, you know, extra resistance. And we would only run for, you know, two and a half miles, and the last mile was uphill, so by that point, I'm chugging along. My face is bright red. I can't even talk anymore because I'm breathing so hard. You know, he's just cruising along, pushing the stroller. But he would, he would slow down, and he would run as slow as I needed to in order to be able to finish. And if he hadn't been there, I would have just quit. But you can't quit when somebody's next to you. Doing it with you. Yeah. So to find ways to include other people can be really helpful. I also suggest that people find ways to they call it reducing friction. Okay, that there's a lot of things that come up against what it is that we're trying to accomplish that can be stoppers. So for example, you want to work out. You know, it's good to work out in the morning. Well, if you wake up and you're like, Well, what am I going to wear? How am I going to work out? Am I going to go to the gym? Am I going to go for a run? Maybe I'll do an exercise video. All right? You just put five or six decisions on your plate, right? And if you can't even make the first one, how are you going to make the next four and then you're not going to work out that morning. If I decide the day before, here's what kind of workout I'm going to do, here's when I'm going to do it. And then I lay my exercise clothes out the night before so that when I get up, that's just the first thing that I put on. I would say 90 to 95% of the time I actually get the exercise in that day. Nice. That is great advice. Yes, not always. There's times I definitely put on the exercise clothes, and then I get distracted, and then two hours later, I'm like, shoot, why am I still learning so it doesn't always work, but it does help a lot. Another area where I reduce friction is I try to have regular hangouts with some of the girls in my home church. And if I had to decide every single week when I was going to hang out with them, that would never work, right? Yeah, our schedules would never align. Somebody would have to initiate again. There's the back and forth as to Well, what about this time? What about this time I'm in college ministry? So the girls that I get together with usually have a different schedule every semester, but what we do is, at the beginning of the semester, we decide, here's the time and date every week, there were, you know, with one friend, it's every Thursday at 230 with another friend, it's every Wednesday at 330 and of course, that can Change sometimes, but it's so much easier to have that time slot in my calendar knowing that that's going to happen if I don't do anything, and then we can adjust from there. So reducing friction can be a really helpful way to get some habits going. Yes, that's great, and that's some of the best parenting advice that I ever got. Is to have that time be regular and set. You know, we all know that it's important to get that quality and quantity time, but if it's like, you know, every Tuesday right after school, then I'm not always thinking about, Well, how long has it been? And, yeah, yeah, that's a great point. And actually, that's something that I'm running into right now where I have my time with my daughter set, but the time with my son is kind of here or there. And yeah, there'll be some weeks where it's like, oh crap, we haven't gotten our time yet, and then we're kind of trying to fit it into a time slot that it doesn't really work that well. So yeah, with our kids as well, I think can be really helpful to just have it in the calendar and then, you know, stuff will come up, but it's easier to reschedule than it is to try to schedule with somebody every week? Absolutely. Yeah. And then the final thing that I would suggest, in terms of, before we get into a few practical areas, is just the idea of starting small. We already talked about this. There's one author that I read. His name is fog. He wrote a book tiny habits. He says many did that come out before or after? Atomic habits? That's a good question. He's like a Stanford prof, and it was a good book, and I it might have been before, but I wonder if they read each other, do you have a book coming out soon? Very small habits, minuscule, infinitesimal habits, yes, but he says most. People operate under the assumption that they've got to go big or go home. They think that in order to kick a bad habit de stress or make a pile of money, they got to do something radical. And he says, While small might not be sexy, it's successful and sustainable. So you know, somebody who wants to read the word they're going to like, they're like, I'm going to read for an hour every day, and I'm just like, oh, that maybe, but most people that I talk to, it doesn't work. That's too big, that's too ambitious. You might be able to do it once or twice, but as soon as something happens that interferes with that, that habit is going to fall apart. Yeah. So I'm a really big believer in starting small, and then we can add to it from there, and it can grow from there, but it has to start out very small, very practical, so that it feels like this is something that I can accomplish. So the funny example from his book is he's like, I knew I needed to floss my teeth more, and I decided, what if the goal is just a floss one tooth. Nice, yeah. And so he's like, so, you know, nine times out of 10, once I flossed one tooth, I ended up flossing the rest of the teeth. Bring himself to just floss one tooth, throw the flosser away, not usually, but his point was also, but if I floss just one tooth, that's better than not flossing any and then I've accomplished my goal for that day. And I just thought, yeah, that's a really good point that if we start small, we're also trying to build up what feels like some small wins, some small successes, because it's hard for us to believe that we're going to be able to change. That's a great point. I love that in connection with reading the Word that example you gave, yes. So I do middle school ministry, and that's something that we emphasize. We want to get the students reading the Word. We think it's possible they're capable of developing a word time at that age. Yes, what? So we have a little bookmark that we give to students that has like, here's tips for getting started. Tip three is aim. Don't aim for quantity or quality. Just aim for consistency. Oh, that's great. So it's like, did I, it's not like, Did I have these spiritual feelings, or did I read a whole, you know, chapter, multiple chapters like, but it's, did I give God a chance today? Yes, you know, and then am I gonna, is it I'm gonna stick with this? Yes. Well, so jumping off of that, that's, that's probably the first habit that I start with in people's lives, if they're asking for help, changing is getting to word time. Because I really believe that if we're in the word on a regular basis, that a lot of things are going to end up changing without even as much effort from us. So as we're talking about word time, I really agree with that, starting small. And you know, the the five minutes a day, five days a week is an excellent goal. It allows you to miss a couple days and still meet your goal. Yeah, there's a great word plan out there. I think it's discipleship journal called the five by five by five, okay? And what I like about that is it does what they call reducing ambiguity. Yes. Now if I want to read the Bible, and I my first step is, well, what am I going to read? Then I think, well, I could read Galatians. Oh, no. Somebody said that Isaiah was really good. Oh, but it's been a while since I've read Psalms. Oh, but Philippians is my favorite, and I can't remember last time. And then that's a that's too many decisions right there, and I'm more likely to just close my Bible and go on with my day, right? What I like about a reading plan is all you have to do is open your Bible and it just tells you what to read next, and then you can read that. And a lot of us like something that we can check off or cross off. There's also apps that will tell you what to read next. And those can be really valuable. I also think that it's important to include some external habits with that. So have a a place where you get your word time every single day. Now, when I really started getting consistent with my word time, it was, I used the same Bible every day. I used the same reading plan, and I knew exactly where I was going to be sitting when I got that reading time. And what's great about that is when I would sit in that specific chair, and there was also even, you know, the same music that I would play. It just felt like I sort of clicked into, okay, this is now my work time, yes. And it felt like this is something that, you know, my brain knows what to do now, and my heart can kind of settle in. I suggest to people, if you really like tea or coffee, find something that you really like. Okay, here's when I'm gonna get that really nice cup of coffee, and that will be something pleasurable, as you're trying to introduce something that you don't have a habit for nice Yeah. So then if those two are connected, yes, then the joy of the one transfers over to the other. Yes, excellent. Yes. I just, I remember recently going on vacation, and we were camping. There was a day where everybody else was out on a hike, so I was just by myself at the campsite. I was like, Okay, I'm gonna get my word time. And this is after many. Years of consistent word time. And so I sit down in one spot, and I'm like, oh, you know, this is kind of on a hill. And so then I'm like, Well, what if I move out over to this other spot? And then all of a sudden, you know, pine cones are falling on me. And then I moved to another spot, but it was too sunny, so I was getting hot, and it took me like, half an hour to settle into my word time. And by the time I finally sat down in a place that was gonna work. I felt scattered. I felt kind of stressed, because I just didn't have the spot where I usually sit when I'm at home. And you know that can change. I've got a different space where I am during the winter versus where I'm at in the summer. And this is not to say that whatever you set up has to be that for the rest of your life. I'm definitely the type of person who can do the same thing every day for the rest of my life and all be happy. And I know a lot of people aren't like that. What I would suggest is find something that you like for now and then at some point in the future you could change it, yeah, but if it's a habit you're trying to get going, don't, don't try to change everything every day, because otherwise it'll make it much harder. Yeah, that's a great point. And as someone who's kind of the opposite temperamentally, like I crave constant change, something that's been helpful to me with that, especially with like Word and prayer time, is knowing that when I commit to a plan, knowing that it's temporary, and then also having in the back of my mind if I start to kind of mentally check out a little bit when I'm doing this, I should switch to something else. Yep, you know, yep, keeping it fresh, which can be really good, yeah. And, you know, a lot of times we also find that habits really struggle during times of transition. So like I described being on vacation and how it was hard to figure out how to exercise that habit. But if you get a new job and all of a sudden you're in a new schedule, yeah, okay, here I was getting my word time at eight in the morning, but now I have to be at work by 730 and God bless those people who can get up early to get their word time before going to work. I was never going to be one of those people, so I talked to people about, okay, but do you have a lunch break? Could you switch it to your lunch break, especially people going from school and part time work to full time, that can feel like a bomb went off in your schedule, and finding ways to adjust to that, switching to a new position or a new career, there's just a lot of mental exhaustion that comes from that much change. Those are times where it's important for the community around the person going through the change to just remind them of God's grace, God's patience, that it takes time to establish the new schedule, the new habit, to help them try to be patient with themselves through that. But then, of course, the other big one is when we have kids. I was waiting for you to mention that when you listen up all these changes, yes, oh my gosh, I had a great job with a regular schedule. I was working at a corporation up in Dublin, and so I worked 730 to 430 I had an hour lunch break every day, so that's when I would get my word time. And then the Lord blessed us with a wonderful little girl and the finances for me to be able to stay home and it, it was awesome. I loved it, but all of a sudden, there wasn't an hour lunch break anymore, and I had a lot of functional responsibilities. All you know, there's a baby and more laundry than I ever imagined would exist in my life. So finding word time there became especially challenging, and then going from one kid to two kids, you know, at least with one kid, I could read my Bible while she was napping if I didn't have to nap. But then when you have the second kid or the third kid, there are no consistent nap times, right? They never sleep at the same time. So there were times I had to either drastically reduce the amount that I was trying to read so I could just get it in little snippets. But I've also talked to moms about other creative ideas and dads too, things like audio Bibles. Yeah, listening. And I, you know, I even talked to one person recently who was like, Well, I listen, but I'm just not a good audio learner, so I'm not sure how much I get out of it. And my encouragement to her was, it's still the Word of God, right? It's still just as powerful. So even if your brain is not engaged, God will still do something in your mind and in your heart through this, right? And so just finding ways to partake of the word, even if it feels like not much is happening, I think, is really it's an act of faith. And God is so gracious, he's so powerful, that he will find a way to come through. That's a great insight, yeah, and anytime it's us and our limitedness Connecting with God, who is almighty, yes, you know the main, the main thing is going to be the part that he's doing for us. It's not going to be about how good is our brain at listening. It's His Holy Spirit who is all powerful at work in us. So, yeah, we just got to give him that chance. Yeah. Well, and it's funny too, because I also talk to people who are like, well, I read it, but I don't understand it. It's like, okay, there's lots of ways to try to understand. And but there's books of the Bible. I think the first 10 times I read the book of Job, I'm just like, I don't understand what's happening in this. There's little tidbits here and there that seem good, but for the most part, this is going right over my head. And then God, in His grace, just allowed me to go through more suffering. And then I started reading the book of Job, and I'm like, Okay, I think I'm getting this. So I don't want to do the thing where my eyes are just going across the words and I'm not getting anything. But I think too often, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves that there's a specific thing we're supposed to be getting out of it, like you said earlier, that we're supposed to have some sort of emotional response most of the time. I love my word time, and I read the Bible, and maybe I jot down a thought or two, and I talk to somebody else and, like, I weep every time I read the Word, and I'm like, Am I doing something wrong? Like, I'm not having that sort of emotional experience. And again, it just it goes back to it's gonna be different for everybody. And it's much more about God and the power in his word than it is about me and what I can get out of it, right? That's, that's awesome. There's a, there's a great insight about that that I think about a lot from a book by Andrew Murray. I think it's an abide in Christ. It might be a different one. They all kind of sound the same, yep. Where he talks about, like our time with God, we should think of it as God trying to get through to us, not like us trying to get through to God. Yes, you know, because he is right there. He's ready. He wants to show us things. And I think that that was kind of a a game changer for my perspective, and it also, it also makes you pray differently when you approach your word time, or it's like, God, I'm going to ask you to show me something, and I know that you want to, so I'm confident that you're going to answer that prayer. What I'm not confident in, what I'm not confident in, is that it's going to feel a certain way to me, yes, but I'm confident that you're going to use it somehow, even if it's unseen to me Well, and that's such a great point, too. You know, he tells us in James, you do not have because you do not ask. And how many of us don't have good word time, but we've never asked the Lord, could you give me great time in your word? Could you help me hear from you and feel like you know this is not just words on the page, but these are your words, and that you're speaking to me. And when I'm in the right mindset, that's what I do. When I sit down and open my Bible is, I'm like, Lord, I'm here. Would you please speak to me this morning? Absolutely, of course, he always speaks through His Word. But that's, that's me getting my heart in the right place and and opening myself up to him Yes, and it's and it's us having the necessary conversations with God that we need to have Yes. Because when I ask that, and then in the back of my mind, I'm thinking like, Well, God's not going to answer that. Like, okay, well, now I have something really big and important to pray about, right? Yeah. So now my, now, my prayer time has been pointed out by, you know, the weaknesses I'm bringing before God, yes, yeah. Oh, man. Andrew Murray is so good. I agree that a lot of his books sound the same. I try to read a book of his a year. He's the goat. Yes, it's just so Grace focused, and he talks as a father who loves his children, so he's able to give that perspective on God. And yeah, this was a man who just knew him in some really deep and intimate ways, which was really cool, yep, yep, yeah. So the other thing that I wanted to just give some suggestions on is, in the area of exercise. This is another thing that I think a lot of people desire to see change, but really have a difficult time knowing how to tackle it. And the things that I have found successful for me are one, again, the idea of doing it with friends. Now, if there's somebody who has a type of exercise that you really like, going to the gym or a yoga class or biking, it doesn't have to be one size fits all, as long as it gets our heart rate up, I think that's the most important thing. But then, if you're really struggling with a regular exercise habit, I would suggest starting with some reading, because it's not enough to know, oh, this is a good thing to do. Instead, to get a hold of some books that explain the benefits of exercise and why exercise is so great for us. So a good Christian book that's excellent by Gary Thomas is called, every body matters. Okay, really straightforward, pretty easy read, and it's about all sorts of different physical health issues, you know, eating healthy and exercise. But he presents some really fascinating research that is really helpful for me. For example, there was a study done on hospital nurses, because a lot of people feel like, why I'm really tired? I you know, why would I exercise if I'm already really tired? And so they found that these women, who were on their feet all day, moving all day, still saw physical and mental benefits from getting some sort. Part of cardio exercise, okay? And I saw that, and I was like, oh, yeah, there's just something physiologically different about a cardio exercise than there is about just moving all day. So it's not just steps. Yes, as greatest steps are that, you know, getting our heart rate up is a really important thing. And then if you want a slightly more technical book. There's the book spark by John rady, and he goes into all of the specific hormonal benefits of exercise, talking about things like there's endorphins that can only cross the blood brain barrier when they're released by the heart, and the heart gets up to a certain beats per minute. Okay, so that is technical. Yes, I know, and there's a lot that I just let wash over me as he gets into all the different endocrinology of it. But then he's got specific chapters on exercise as related to depression, exercise as related to ADHD, and just kind of gets into this is how physical exercise helps with some of these mental issues that people struggle with without any of the side effects of some of the medication that we need to take. And it really was quite motivating for me, because I, as much as I exercise for the physical benefits, like the main one that I tie it to is I sleep so much better when I exercise, the higher sleep quality and I need less sleep at night because I've had a good workout that day. But as much as I enjoy that, I primarily am regular with exercise for mental stability. If I am not regular in exercise, I just find myself sliding into, you know, kind of some low grade depression. I'm not that motivated. I get really cranky with people, and so for the benefit of everyone around me, I exercise. I exercise because I love the people God has put in my life, and the only way that I'm going to be pleasant to be around is if I'm getting regular exercise, yeah? Nice, yeah. That's kind of, I remember anatomic habits. He talks about a keystone habit, yes. So the one habit that affects other habits, I'm sure, like being good friend and keeping up on, keeping up on, you know, your mental and emotional state, those are also habits. Yes. So would you say for you, exercise is one that leads to those others? Yes. And for me, personally, I find that if I don't exercise first thing in the morning, I'm probably not gonna get to it for the rest of the day. So my current schedule is my alarm goes off at about 630 in the morning because my kids leave the house by seven, and I want to see them before they leave. They're old enough that I don't have to get them up and get them moving. They do that themselves, but this is at least a way for me to see them. So the first thing I do is I pour my coffee and I read my Bible. That's what I want to do before I do anything else. But then from there, I if I haven't already put on my workout clothes, we have a bike, an exercise bike, in our basement. And so then after I read my Bible, I'm either already dressed in my workout clothes, or I go upstairs, and I change out of my bathrobe into those, and then I just head down into the basement with my prayer list. I use an app for Bible Memory. I've got books that I'm trying to read, and I just hop on the bike for whatever amount of time that I'm able to bike and do all those other things, that's also nice, because it feels efficient. Yeah, you know, these are other things that I want to do and, you know, in a grace oriented way, kind of have to do anyway, like I, I feel like I have to get my prayer time. That's the best way to, you know, affect change in other people's lives and to help them grow. So it's like, if I can bike and pray for people, then my motto for myself is I always have time to exercise. Yeah, I always have time to exercise. One, because maybe I can pair it with something else that I need to do anyway. But two, I just find that getting some good exercise, even if it takes time out of my schedule, I get that time back because I'm just more productive the rest of the day, less distracted. I'm just more focused, I'm more efficient. And these are all things that it took me a long time to become convinced of, but it was as I started seeing the benefits of it that I became more motivated to do it. Because I'm like, Oh, this actually is working out for some really positive things in my life. Maybe I should try to do it more regularly, nice. So what would you say to someone who's listening to this and they're saying, okay, I get I get the grace thing. I'm supposed to be under grace. But still, I'm listening to all this stuff about reading the word, about other good habits, about spending time with people about exercising, and I feel like my life is just an absolute mess. If you could, I guess, as we come to a close here, if you could leave them with one key thing to consider from this, what would it be that's a great question, and before I even answer that, I just want to say, there's, there's always hope. I. Like I said, my life was a complete mess, and God has affected a tremendous amount of change. He has done a miraculous work in my life. I know many, many other people who have seen God change and grow them in some really incredible ways, and he's the one that gets all the glory for that, so we can be great examples of his power in our lives, which is really cool. If people are feeling really overwhelmed, I would suggest starting with finding a trusted friend to talk to, being really open and honest about the frustration, about the hopelessness. Not just find a trusted friend, but also find ways to pray about it, journal about it, be honest with God. But then in that to then really start to wrestle with do I believe that God is capable of doing this in my life or not? Do I believe that he the same power that rose Christ from the dead is the power that is available in my life, that these are things that I don't have to do that he wants to provide for me. And so the goal is not try harder. The goal is find ways to trust Him and to follow his lead on this stuff. And I believe that he will show every single person a way forward, and that he knows exactly what it is that somebody needs to do in order to start that change process. And I think a lot of that can be found through prayer on our own, but also through conversations and prayer with other people, and God will make his will clear to us. Excellent. Thanks so much. Well, I think we're coming to a close here on this episode of dwell on these things. Thanks so much, Chris for coming in and talking through this stuff, praying that it'll be really helpful to many people listening to this, as it has been for me. By the way, there is a class on this that is on YouTube. If you go to dwell community Church's YouTube page and search for that, you can also visit dwellcc.org for More Resources.