Welcome to dwell on these things. A podcast by dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at dwell and around the world. You Matt, welcome to dwell on these things. My name is Matteo Williamson. I oversee many of our support ministries here at dwell, including the gift ministry. If you're not familiar with gift, they offer one on one counseling classes and seminars to help people better understand biblical and financial principles on a practical basis. They are one of our longest running ministry teams, and are taking on a very complex and difficult ministry task, helping people apply a biblical worldview to their wallet. So today, I'm joined by two of their ministry leaders, Dan Brannigan and Josh Keegan, a senior accountant, here at dwell. Welcome guys. Thanks for having us. Hey, good to be here. Nice. Okay, so gift ministry, what does gift stand for? Great question. I believe it stands for, Gen got generous. No, God's investments in future treasuries. Is that right? I thought it was godly investment in future. Godly investment in future someone's treasures. Yeah, I don't know if they came up with, like, the idea for the acronym and then, like, just, like, how do we fit? They're probably not gonna keep that part, but, yeah, that's what, that's what it's called. That's awesome. I was talking to my father in law. For the audience that doesn't know the Mac McEwen was one of the founders of gift ministry. I asked him recently, what does gift stand for? He could not tell me. I'm glad that you guys actually know the answer to that sort of, maybe, I think it says it unlike an old manual that I got like, when I was in training, I thought Mac would be mad at us, like, think we were bad counselors. So how did it start? How did you guys know how gift ministry started? We actually both are unaware of the origin of, yeah, we were going to totally rely on Mac, who is the the godfather of the ministry. Yeah, the institutional knowledge. It's been going on for decades. We were both thinking it's probably started before we were born. Yeah, I sound so crazy, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess that speaks to the longevity. It's really one of our longest running ministry teams that's active here at dwell Community Church. So yeah, I could be wrong, but I think I remember once Mac telling me, and maybe a couple other people, a story about, like, how, because I think he is a professional, like, he's he, you know, has a financial firm or whatnot, and he's been doing this as a career, helping people with their money and their investments. And I think he would just get requests all the time from, like people that he knew, and like his home church or whatever, asking money questions, and maybe that somehow, you know, sparked the idea, but I'm not 100% sure that makes sense. I'm sure you guys get a lot of that from people in your home churches too. Oh, all the time, yeah, I used to talk about it non stop. It was actually the impetus. Maybe this is getting ahead into your questions, but I, like, got into this topic, and then, like, wouldn't shut up about it, and I would find myself, like, talking with, you know, people, like, after Home Church and CT, like it. Just couldn't that's kind of how I am and and I just thought, like, maybe I should do this so that I can, like, Leave my friends alone with my like, they don't make for great icebreakers, right? Yeah, yeah. People don't really want to talk about this subject that much, but I love talking about it. So I got started well before I had even heard about gift. I think I maybe stumbled across some popular YouTube content on money, and, and, and, you know, from a Christian perspective. And I got was, like, pretty interested, you know. And I learned about the ministry, so I scheduled a meeting, because I was like, really, like, I said, you know, talking about this stuff all the time, and just really found myself being interested in the subject. So I scheduled a gift meeting for myself, and it was so helpful. I remember one particular like, I kind of thought that, I kind of thought that I already had, like, stuff together, and I really just wanted somebody to see it and like, affirm, you know, like, Whoa, you're good at this or something like that. And I remember meeting with Alan Weaver, who's still, I think, a gift counselor. And I. He, you know, gave me some challenging input on the way that I viewed giving he, because I was a natural saver, always have been. And, you know, one comment that he made was, Dan, you really, you really understand, like, the power of compounding, you know, in terms of your savings for the long term. But I'm not seeing that reflected in terms of the power of compounding for your giving and how that impact can compound over eternity. And I'm just not seeing the same level of enthusiasm, you know, towards that and what you're talking about. And I was like, You're so right. And I, you know, that stuck with me and really changed, like, you know, I made some changes, you know, I talked to my wife, and we made some changes based on that. And it was just, I think, illustrative of, like, wow, this really helped me. And I felt like I didn't really need it. Like, I said I was just going to get some loose ends tied up with in terms of my finances, and that that experience sort of led me to think like, oh, maybe I could do this, and maybe I could be that for somebody else. Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, one question that comes to mind is, why does the application of biblical truth to finances even matter? See, I mean, that's kind of the why, right? Why are people showing up to gift? Why should people show up to, you know, the seminars, the counseling even seek God's input in this area, yeah? Like, why should the church even provide this? What? Like, are we being presumptuous? I don't know if you think about that sometimes, Josh, I have that doubt a lot creep in my head. Like, why don't we just send people to, you know, set non church resources? Like, do we have to do this? I don't know if you want to. Yeah, I think it's nice for people to have so for you, when you met with Alan Weaver back in the day, you maybe didn't have a friendship with him, necessarily, but it was probably a guy that you had heard of, or at least, like, seen around at our church facility before. And I think that helps people to have, like, a maybe an associated affiliation with that person. And so not everyone that we meet with knows us, but I think it's nice to have, like, a more of a close relationship then, like, I'm just gonna go off to this random office over on the other side of town and meet with someone I've never heard of. So I think there's some familiarity that helps. Maybe that's one of the reasons why we exist. Yeah, it probably helps that you have, for those who don't know gift ministry, they have their own financial financial counselors that will meet with people, but you guys go through and you onboard, you vet the individuals who are volunteering in this ministry. And so when someone comes to gift ministry, they trust, okay, so this is someone who's been vetted, someone who we trust to give sound financial advice and biblical principles related to money. And so there's a level of comfort that comes from being a person who approaches gift ministry that maybe wouldn't have otherwise, if they're just going to, you know, random person in town, sure, yeah, and I don't think it's true. We don't give anyone the impression that we're, like, the experts in this, and that, like we've made it or anything, I think, like Dan mentioned, like we have a natural inclination towards finances, and it's something that we like talking about, but it's something that it still requires work on our part. This isn't something that's like, easy, just like you learn how to manage your finances and then you're there. It's like, something that you keep coming back to. So I think that's something that we want people to know. It's like, we like talking about this, but we're human. We're not like, you know, we can relate on your struggles and your weaknesses, and we've probably had a lot of the same things and are probably still struggling with some of that stuff too. Yeah, yeah. And we're not professionals that, I think that should be made clear. I don't know if there's any confusion about that out there and the you know, whatever, but we're not like CFPs. There are some gift counselors that are professional, you know, certified financial planners, or, you know, something along those lines, but most of us aren't. So this type of advice is, you know, similar to, like, the type of advice you would get from, like, a home church leader or somebody that you're meeting with one on one for mentoring or something like that. So you cannot advise me on my cryptocurrency. That's right. Okay, yeah, I'd find someone else. Okay, yeah, not on the record. Yeah, you can find somebody. Yeah. As far as your question about, why does applying biblical, you know, why should we apply the Bible to this? My thought was like, you know, compartmentalized, like life is not. We like to think of life as like a series of boxes or compartments. And how does the Bible, you know, apply to each one and to be complete, I mean, to be honest, there are some aspects of money that the Bible speaks a lot to. There's a lot of problems. Practical stuff that the Bible doesn't have a whole lot to say about. And I think that's what makes it such a tricky subject for people, because people are like, I want to know what to do. And the Bible doesn't say, you know, for instance, it doesn't say how much to give. You know, in the New Testament paradigm, you know, maybe in the Old Testament it was easy, 10% tithe, you know. But so yeah, life is not a series of boxes. Things are integrated with one another, and I think money is a subject where, if it's compartmentalized, it becomes a problem, because it's such a big part of our life, it touches so many other aspects of our life, our work, our relationships, marriage, our lifestyle, all these things are integrated with money. And so I think if you're not applying the biblical principles and God's wisdom to a subject that's so integrated with other subjects that you would apply God's wisdom to, you're going to run into problems. It's a great point. It's, again, we're not looking at a black and white in a lot of cases here. We're talking about applying God's wisdom to an area. And so again, yeah, there's, what does it mean to be a cheerful giver? What does it look like to save practically? What does it look like, you know, when my fiance and I get married and we need to combine our finances, and then we also want to give. We want to save, talking through those things with someone else, applying biblical principles, really does matter. That's a great point. Yeah, and there's a lot of financial content out there, and it's hard sometimes to sift through what's helpful and what's not helpful. So I think that's another reason why this stuff matters, applying biblical truth to finances, because you'll hear, I don't know, 100 different things throughout your week about how to handle your finances and like your your family wisdom and your friends wisdom and your work wisdom. And you're like, how much of this is actually should I trust and what's good and what's not, and sifting through that thing is, I think, is really challenging and difficult. So if you're, if you're never sifting through all this content that you're taking in, I think you're, you're in danger of maybe accepting some bad advice. Man, that's good. Yeah, both of you have alluded to the landscape of information when it comes to wealth, when it comes to how you use your money and resources. Josh and I were talking yesterday about a, you know, there's a specific financial podcast that is consistently in the top 50. So people are looking for this information. Yeah. So I was interested, from your guys' perspective, what is the landscape like out there in terms of quality? What kinds of things do you interact with, people on and what do you make of some of the stuff people are consuming? You may go first, yeah, there's a lot where to start. Yeah, there is a lot of stuff out there. When I engage with people about like, people come up to me and say, What do you think about so and so? You know, who's on YouTube, or what do you think about such and such podcasts about money? And I in some cases, you know, I like to point out first, if, if it's entertainment, then it's entertainment, and you should view it as that. I mean, there are a lot, there's a lot of content out there, a lot of the big ones that it's just helpful to view it that way. You know, it's entertainment first, then maybe educational, or it's both, you know, and so there's a reason why, you know, there's that there's a new guy now that everybody's into young, young people are into apparently, I've listened to a couple things just, you know, screams at people the entire time. And people love it, you know. And people ask me, like, what do you think about, you know, this person, or whatever? And I'm like, as far as their advice, I mean, yeah, they say, you know, it could take relief, some of it, but, you know, their approach. I mean, it's obviously not an advisable approach, but it's entertainment. That's what gets clicks. Don't scream at people in one on one counseling. Oh, yeah, no, right, yeah, good, good, clear. That's good to know, I guess. Yeah, if people are expecting that hasn't happened yet, that doesn't mean it can't happen. Take notes like I wouldn't discourage anybody from consume there's nothing out there that I would say, like, Oh, you got to stay away from that, or something like that. Oh, you think, Josh, maybe I would just encourage people to, like, Well, yeah, like I said, view it as entertainment. And then maybe there are certain, certain personalities have a certain bent, or their flavor, or their like brand, or what's their thing, and it's just good to know that going in like so and so is really extreme. You know, focuses a lot and is extreme on debt. And you know, debt being evil, and you gotta do everything you can to. It, you know, and it's good to know that going in, and not everybody has that same perspective, you know. Or there's different perspectives out there, I guess is what I would encourage people as they're consuming, yeah, and I think you need to watch out for a lot of these content creators will say this, but maybe not expand on it. There's no like, quick fix, like, a lot of people are going to this for, like, a quick fix on how to get out of debt or or how to do better at budgeting or something like that, how do I invest more? Blah, blah. And they, they're looking for just like this one silver bullet that's going to solve their problem, but they're not ready to kind of overhaul their lifestyle or make the sacrifices necessary to change that. And so I think that's maybe something that doesn't get talked about, is like the the ongoing lifestyle sacrifice and, you know, taking up your cross daily to try to accomplish what God's put on your heart and and so, yeah, I think you just got to watch out for like this. It's never going to be this, like one stop shop, quick fix. It's going to be a over the course of days, weeks, years, to solve something like that. That's a really good point, I think, to that point, you know, if, yeah, you're not going to go to YouTube, like, if you have a financial problem, you know, if you're in credit card debt, it's not going to fix it by watching a YouTube video. But I would recommend to people like to pick up. If you're listening to a content creator, a lot of times, they'll have literature, like books that they've written. I found those to be much more nuanced. I think it makes sense too, because online, in their persona, they're trying to get clicks, they're trying to get views, they're trying to get, you know, people listen and go get their stuff, and then, you know, if they're any good, their their print stuff is going to be much more level. You know, less screen balance, yes, less yelling, yeah, that's good. So when someone shows up for gift counseling, what's the most common reasons people come to you guys seeking out help? This one's easy for me say it on the count of three, yeah, let's go. 123, buying a house. Ah, no, this is why the newlywed game does not exist anymore. Yeah? Definitely. Debt. Yeah, is a big one. Yeah, for sure. No, the reason I think of buying a house is because Josh and I, after doing counseling for like, I don't know, a few years, maybe we would, like, sometimes, you know, catch each other around, like, we work together for a little bit, you know, so we'd see each other at the office or something like that, and be like, you know, oh, at a gift meeting, we found that, like, oh, man, we're getting so many people coming for the same things, and particularly couples coming for it's like, we're newly married and we want to buy a house, and what do you think? And so we eventually wrote something up on that, because we were like, it's just maybe it would be easier to just direct people to a paper than saying the same things in a two hour session one on one. Yeah, that makes sense. That honestly makes a lot of sense. Part of it is, you guys have counselors from all stages of life. And so in some ways, you're some of the people that are coming in to see you guys are probably self selecting into some certain pieces of advice. But you know, there's individuals who could meet with you for whether it's talking through college debt planning for a family. I don't know if estate planning or or things like that, but yeah, we have multiple counselors on staff of different age range and just life stages. And I think what, what, Dan's right? The clients that we tend to take are in their early to late 20s, early 30s, and they're kind of in that like we're thinking about certain family, or we're thinking about certain house. What does that look like? There's just kind of a lot of a lot of questions that need answered. I think they're coming to us for just like, what do you guys think about this plan that we have in place? And so, yeah, we do see a lot about buying house and how to approach that. That's who I see the most. And they do, I think, I think they are like, they're not sending me the people who are retiring or, you know, planning their state or whatever, I think somebody else is handling that. So I've never handled that question, definitely. You know, honestly, I was thinking, or I don't know if you had another I was thinking, I'm paraphrasing this, but like, I'm single and I don't have my life together, and let alone my finances. Where do I start? That's probably like, I don't know three out of 10 people that I guess you know, I remember being that guy, so I'm familiar, yeah. And it's almost like, I'll ask, like, so what? Your questions, and it's just kind of like I was hoping you'd tell me that this is fine, you know, I'm happy to, you know, I want to let people know, like we're not going to turn you away because you're confused or whatever. But that is, I'd say, frequent when someone reaches out to gift ministry and they want to do a one on one counseling session, they have no idea what to expect for that meeting. So maybe you guys can talk me through what what happens when you get in the room with one of you guys to talk about finances? Well, I might actually back you up a step before they get into the room. I think one of the principles that that Mac McEwen and then John and Al have have put into place is that we want people to be doing some pre work before they get into that one on one session. And right the reason for that being we don't think that the counselor should be doing more work than the counselee, that that's something that if they think that this is something that they want to improve in, then there needs to be some work done on the front end. So there, they actually have to do a pretty extensive amount of digging up pay stubs, any information on debt, their their current budget, if they have one, and so before they even get into the room, there's some requirements. Here's what you need to do before you can have a meeting. And we think that that's really beneficial. It's not it. Maybe it weeds some people out who aren't that serious. But really, I think it gets people like, thinking about, like, Okay, what? What are my fans? Where do I stand financially, yeah, and what do I want to improve on? What questions do I have? It's kind of half the battle, in my opinion, about you, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that was maybe because, for a while we were getting people like we were just kind of sending people through, I think maybe with minimal like information, and we would get people like I said, who, you know, they just can't answer any questions about their stuff. So we started requiring, yeah, yeah. I think it is a barrier. I'll say to anybody listening, who's thinking about gift, and maybe you're out there and you've, you know, seen the paperwork required. It is definitely a little bit of work, but it's worth it, and we're just going to ask you the questions anyways, when you get to us, you might as well, might as well be prepared. Yeah, yeah. So once you actually, once we schedule a meeting, it's pretty informal. We're sitting at a table together, probably getting to know each other a little bit like, what, what brought you here? What life stage are you in, you know, and maybe sharing a little bit about ourselves. And then I think Dan and I probably both have some things that we say in pretty much every meeting. But then from there, it can go a number of directions based on what what brought you to the this meeting today. What questions do you want to answer? And how can we help you answer those questions? Yeah, I agree with that. That's how our meetings go. My meetings like it's, I think when I first started off, I had like, an agenda, and I just kind of tried to force everything through that, like, I would review somebody's stuff and kind of have in mind, like, what, okay, I think I know what they need, you know. And then we'd meet with them, and, you know, just be time spent me trying to persuade them along a certain path. And God helped me learn a better way pretty quickly. And now I you know, one of the first questions I ask is, what, like Josh said, you know, what brought you here? Like, what are questions that you have such that, like, what can we talk about today? Such that when we leave this meeting, you can go home and tell people, that's exactly how I hope that meeting would go. It's 100% you know what I was looking for, and you know you're grateful for the time. And I always make sure to circle back at the end and ask again, did we talk about what you Is that what you hoped it would be? Because we're really here for you to help you with your questions, and we're not concerned with helping you, like, I don't know, do whatever we think. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So yeah. And we want people to know this isn't just we're not trying to share our opinion. Well, sometimes, maybe we do try to share our opinions too often, but I think a lot of the time we we just want to make people aware, like, God has a lot to say about this. We look at Scripture together. I think a lot of our meetings end with, like, praying through some of the bigger items that that have been brought up throughout the meeting. And then also, people usually leave my sessions at least with a little bit of homework, like at least two or three things that they're that they're supposed to go leave and and I do that too. I don't call it homework, though. I give them some tasks, you know, action items, yeah. Action Items, yeah, it's good. I mean, hopefully you're, you know, if you're meeting with us for two hours, I hope you're ready to take further action. Action past the meeting. You know otherwise, it's not. I mean, what? What's it going to accomplish? That makes sense. It's a it's going to be helpful to the person sitting there, if they're taking ownership, and then they're putting in some of the work outside of the meeting. Yeah, yeah. And to Josh's point, about like we are going to give our advice. I mean, sometimes I want, I mean, if I get the sense that somebody doesn't want some, sometimes people come and they just have a plan they want somebody to look at, and they kind of just want to check a box, you know, like I'm going to do, like, you just get the sense that they want the stamp of approval, and they're going to do this thing, you know, and they're not really all that interested. And that's fine, because, you know, it's like, it's your life, you know, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I mean, sounds great, you know, go do your thing. But most people, you know, we recognize you came for our advice, so we're going to give it, but we're going to caveat that. You know, this is our advice. It's just how we would do it. I mean, you have to decide what you would do. You know, you mentioned you pray together with people that you meet with. Has there been a scripture that you found to be particularly helpful in your meetings, or a scripture that you find that you go back to a lot when you're meeting with people one on one? That's a great question. Yeah, I like, I like to share we talk about in our church, we like to emphasize, like, the means of growth. And we talk about, you know, we want to read Scripture. We want to pray together, we want to spend time with each other. We want to, like, accept God's suffering in our lives and learn from that and deepen our relationship. And then, in second, Corinthians, Paul kind of makes the case, like, just as you excel in all these areas and in faith and speech and knowledge, I want you to also excel in this grace of giving. And so I think, you know, when people, people come to talk about finances, one of the this is a biblically based counseling session, so we like to get people thinking about like, well, how are you giving out from what you've what you've received. And so I think that's, that's something that we like to start talking about in sessions, is like, we kind of have this breakdown of give, save, live, you've, probably, if you've, if you've ever had a session, you've probably heard that before. And so I think having some scripture related to giving is really key. And that's one of the ones that I like to point to. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, I think we've already mentioned, like, meetings can go a bunch of different ways. A lot of my meetings out, you know, will actually take the time maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes or so, and read through half a dozen scriptures related to giving, saving and spending, just if I don't get, like, in kind of chatting at the beginning, getting background, if I don't get, like, a real confident assurance, based on what we've talked about, that this is somebody who's, like, really rooted in what God says about, you know, just general, general biblical framework, I guess. But even if, even if I do feel confident that, you know, we'll tend to read like, a couple scriptures that I'll bring up, just tailored to, like, if somebody is a really good saver, for instance, you know, I might bring up a scripture related to, you know, like Hebrews 13 five. Is it like? You know God won't forsake you. God will never forsake you. You know that you don't have to put your hope and money. That is a great scripture for somebody who is a natural saver, because that is going to be probably how they lean on the other side of the coin. There's two sides to the coin, you know, if you have a strength in an area. And so I'll try to tailor scriptures like that to each person, as God leads me. Sometimes I don't have, like, I don't know, and I'll send them later or something, yeah. Um, yeah. Scriptures or Yeah, I like to look at that, um, the section of Galatians six at the beginning where he talks about you should carry your own load, but he's also, yeah, says you should care. You should carry each other's burdens, bear each other's burdens. And so you're thinking, I don't want to be so foolish as to not be able to, you know, pay my bills and, yeah, you know, have food and shelter. But I also want to be outward focused and thinking about how I can support the people that I care about, and maybe the the programs that I'm interested in, the church that I'm involved in, maybe global work and and thinking about like, how I can both sustain myself and also then start to give out to other people. Yeah, I'll say, um. Uh, there's a lot of scriptures out there that I like. We like, you know, whether we could go, I'll say, like in the meeting, I find myself pointing the most to first, Timothy six. There's a few verses at the end, like 17 through 19 or 20, maybe, where he addresses the rich and he gives them instructions. Like, you know, I don't know if I had it written down, like, yeah, as for the rich in this present age, charges them not to be haughty. And he kind of goes on, there's so much there that I find myself like, that's such a comprehensive few verses. In terms of its theology about money, there's so many, I feel like you could, like, isolate so many different parts of it and and give like a sermon on it. But it's also broaden its application. Like, for instance, there's a part of it where he says, where he mentions that God gives all things to us for our enjoyment. And sometimes I'll bring that up with people who come to me and are gifted livers like what I mean by that is like they're naturally they're natural spenders. They're enjoy life. They know I enjoy life and have a good time and help other people have a good time. And they tend to feel badly about their spending because, you know, they have it in their minds that it's like good to be a saver and bad to be something like that, you know? And so I'll point that often. I'll point to that scripture in First Timothy six that like, Hey, God gave us our money to enjoy, not to whatever. Yeah, that's a great scripture. It's cool. Before we wrap up with some of these other questions. As we were talking, it just made me think we talked some about the information landscape when it comes to so I'm going off the cuff here a little bit. No, you're good. Yeah. We talked a little bit about the information landscape, yeah. So, yeah, when you're meeting with people, what are some ideas or trends about money that you find to be helpful and some that are unhelpful that you you guys have found circulating among people? Here's one that comes to mind that, and I'm no expert in this area, so I don't want to overstate my case, but people seem very concerned with their credit scores, and they maybe heard from their parents, like, oh, you need to get a credit card and pay it off every month so that you can build your credit score, and that will set you up for success in the future. And so I think there's a good component of, like, yes, you want to be able to have a good credit score, have be on record of, I pay my bills and I, you know, I'm trustworthy. But then I think there's some danger there, like, you're getting recommended to open lines of credit, and that's not something to be taken lightly, like that's that can be dangerous. That's something that you want to think about. You want to make sure that you're able to pay for that. And so, yes, there's a there's a benefit of having good credit, but you need to make sure you're counting the cost. Is this worth the risk of me spending things that I can't end up paying for? And then that backfires? Yeah, I agree with that. I think it also distracts from, like, what's the the most important? Like, people want to build their credit so that this what, so they can get good interest rates on loans specifically for their house or their car, you know, their biggest assets that they're going to be getting a loan for. And the best thing to do to set yourself up for success, if you're planning to buy a house or a large asset, or, like a new car, something like that is, yeah, having a good credit score helps. But what helps, I don't know, 10 times 100 times more maybe, is to have a great down payment and to have a consistent income stream, to be in a career that's, you know, strong and has has potential to grow to have habits of discipline, like, where you are, you like, good discipline, habits related to finances. Like, I feel like people just make it as simple as, like, yeah, if you just like, get a credit card and have a good credit score, you're going to be set up for success to buy a house. And that's just not the case. Yeah, it kind of fits with the points you're making earlier. Where it's it's not just one of these things in a vacuum. It's, yeah, how can I learn to be generous and give? How can I learn to save and spend in a way that's applying God's wisdom. And so you have to factor all those things in. It's not just this one, you know, I could improve my credit score and then financially, that's that's the trick to being better off, yes, applying all these different things together. That's right. Another cultural emphasis, I think I've seen is it seems pretty broadly accepted that people should have a. Emergency savings account. Maybe people use different terms for that, but I think that's something that's that's wise to have some amount of money that you've worked to save up in case an emergency pops up, where you have unexpected medical bills or you lose your job or something like that. And I think that's, that's great. And then I think that kind of ties into a point that Dan made earlier. You don't want to get too carried away, and then just start saving and saving and saving and saving, and then you're, what's even the point of your savings anymore? Like, are you? Are you saving for something in particular? Are you just, like, in this mindset that I'm trying to hoard money and use it, use it for some unknown future expense? Yeah, I agree with that. We definitely teach, teach on that, like the difference between saving and hoarding and something good to think about, generally speaking. Like, I don't know if this come. I kind of assume that this comes from some of the content that's out there about money that people consume. But I also think it's just human nature that everything seems, everything out there seems to be about like, black and white, right and wrong, dumb and smart, you know, like, like the podcast you know, you'll search like personal finance on, you know, your your podcast player, and you'll get these episode titles that are like, 10 ways to be an idiot with money or 10 genius, you know, money steps, moves that you need to make in 2025 to set yourself up to be a million. You know, just these really extreme things. And I don't know, I just find, like when I'm talking with people, that there's a lot of fear in their decision making process that gets them tied up and sometimes paralyzed or just unsure. That comes from just they're just afraid of whatever their whatever decision they're about to make, being viewed, whether by God is right or wrong, or by people as dumb or smart or something like that. Yeah. I think people just want to do the right thing, yeah, and do a smart thing and not a dumb thing. Yeah? That makes it generally So, yeah, when you're talking with someone, how do you help address some of those fears, or even maybe sometimes people aren't even aware of the fact that they bring a lot of fear into their financial decisions. How do you go about talking about that with people? You know, they have questions, right? That's the point of our meeting. Should I buy a house or continue renting? Is like the classic one that, you know, has come up a lot. And I'll just ask them, What are the benefits to you of doing one or the other? And I'll just listen to them and kind of repeat back and help them, because sometimes they're like, I'm not sure, but they got to flesh it out, you know? And I'll kind of match that up with what they've already shared before that about their background and their where they're at in life, and their where, where they came from, where they're going, and, you know, I'll just kind of hopefully let them see, like one side outweighs the other, and I might even point out, like it seems like you're saying that there would be a lot more benefits to you doing this than that. And they'll be like, yeah, and I'll be like, so what's your you know? How can I help you? Yeah, and they'll be like, No, that was great, you know, I just need, I think sometimes people just need permission, and I'm fine to give that, but, you know, as long as it's clear that, like, they see that, like they don't need it. For me, but it feels good, you know, I I don't know. No, that makes sense. You're helping people make independent decisions. You're not signing off all the financial decisions people make, but you're again, you're trying to help them make their own decisions while also offering biblical wisdom and advice. That makes sense. Yeah, it seems like sometimes there's a spectrum too, where, on the one hand, there's the person that's overly concerned with their finances, and maybe I tend more towards the side. You're checking your account, balances, your investments and stuff like that, and that's where you're you tend to draw your security from. And then there's maybe someone on the other spectrum, where they're kind of living carefree and maybe wondering in the back of their mind, like, is this going to catch up to me someday? And I think maybe some of those like fears that are in both camps in the back of their mind, like, Is God going to provide for me, or do I need to provide for myself? And then another camp, like, you know, do I need to start thinking about this stuff? I think helping them maybe try to come, whichever way they tend to be, try to help them come to more of a middle ground where they're not overly anxious about their money, but they're not just spending money without even having a second thought and thinking about that's a trade point. Yeah, totally. So at gift, what resources are you guys hoping to build out for people? So you mentioned you guys put together a paper on buying a house. Are you guys in the process of building out resources that will be available to people? Yeah. Yeah, I think we're interested in, we've done maybe a couple of these on record, some smaller setting talks like maybe 10 to 15, maybe max 20 people of similar you know, every single individual varies on their interests and their needs and their life stages, but having those kind of small group meetings where we're maybe throwing around some questions. It's way more informal, less of like us presenting, here's what you need to know, and like, what are some questions you guys have? And trying to approach things relationally. And maybe get groups of people that are already maybe have a Bible study together or some common interest, and as soon as they hear other people ask questions, it promotes them asking each other questions and talking about that. So I think, I think that's something that we're trying to bring onto the stage here is sort of like a smaller group talk where we can, yeah, promote discussion about finances and not have that be some thing that people don't like to talk about because it's dirty, or, yeah, I don't know, yeah. Yeah. I think somebody coined the term Fireside Chat. Think that was, FDR, no, but like, applied it to these little things that we're having. Yeah, you're right. FDR, did. We'll call it something else, but yeah, I did side discussion. Yeah, I did do one of those recently, like, just, I guess, a presentation, I don't know, like Josh said, it was more laid back. We just went over some stuff with a group of guys. They were, you know, between, like, 18 and probably 30 years old, and it's probably 12 or 15 guys in a basement at somebody's house and I loved it, I would definitely do more. I think, yeah, there are benefits to that, versus, like, one on one, yeah, that I really liked. I imagine that in a lot of ways, like you're shining God's light into areas where maybe people experience shame, or there's just some taboo I know, like depending on the family you're brought up, in talking about finances was probably very acceptable or very unacceptable. Yeah. And so there's something freeing about being able to ask for help, get advice with other people there, and some of that back and forth that they can think, I think would be pretty healthy and helpful for people. Yeah, I think it's helpful for people just to see other people talk about it, that they know and just, you know, that they're human too, that they have, like, problems, you know. Oh, so and so has credit card debt, yeah, or, I don't know so and so is, like, struggle, like, has a hard time giving or saving. I don't know stuff like that. We're on the same boat. Yeah, we all have strengths and weaknesses that we got to lean into or against. Yeah. I mean seeing spiritual growth in this area, in particular, in other people's lives, it can be really impactful. I remember an older Christian in my home church that I was attending who just being very open about stuff going on in his financial life and things he and his wife were considering. I remember being like, I can't believe he's talking to a room full of 20 year olds about this, yeah. But, um, yeah, it really opened up to me, just not vulnerability, just in terms of relationships and life circumstances, but also in this area too, and money totally. I think that is a huge benefit to hear other people who are a little bit ahead of you talk about, you know, what it's like to go through this phase or that phase, in terms of the money, it can help you out so much. I mean, so many people go into like a big new thing with nothing, and they're just going along with whatever. I don't know they found on the internet. Yeah? I mean, that's one of the blessings of the Body of Christ. Is right? We can lean on each other for wisdom. But again, yeah, you have people ahead of you that you can look to and connect as a model. Another one of our counselors on staff, John mentioned he just did a one of these fireside we don't like fireside chat. I don't know. It seems like it's claimed, yeah, he had a meeting with a group of guys with a little bit of a wider range, but he mentioned, like, maybe 25 to 50, and he said it was very helpful. Maybe one of the older guys was was more open about his finances and some of his shortcomings and or ways that he wanted to improve. And then that just kind of opened up, like the whole like the whole room. Then felt comfortable, since the maybe the who was viewed as, like the wise older man in the room opened up, it kind of started a discussion. So I think, I think that is, like, a really beneficial setting to promote discussion. And another thing that I maybe we could bring Dan is we've talked about doing we wrote that paper on renting versus buying a house. I think some, maybe some frank, frequently asked questions about debt and, like, student loans, like that seems to be another thing that comes up pretty often, and we're by no means like the experts, but I think we could compile, like, maybe a list of like, commonly asked questions, and maybe point people to certain resources, like you. Just a lot? Yeah, I think that'd be pretty beneficial. Yeah, I agree. It could save us a little time. Occasionally, we will get, I'll get, like, a person, somebody who meets with me one on one and just has, like, a couple of real, you know, quick questions that I'm like, could have been addressed, you know, maybe over Not, not their fault or anything. I'm happy to meet with people, but, yeah, that would be cool to have a frequently asked and to get them from people like I think that's something that maybe I'd love to see more. This is not something that we can generate. But you know, if you're out there and you maybe don't need or want to set up a meeting with a gift counselor, but you still have a question. It'd be cool if people just email their questions. I mean, and you know, we can, I don't know. Do you ever get questions via email from people? Like, occasionally, after, uh, afterwards, after a meeting with a client or a couple, they'll send me like, Oh, I forgot to ask about this. Yeah, something else that Mac has mentioned. I don't know if he's brought this up with you, Mateo, but he he's working on an inheritance class, I believe, or like, so I think that's a that's something that maybe people need help thinking through, like, what is, you know, we're all mortal here, and we're accruing money, and what are we going to do with it When we die? And thinking about how to give well and balanced, and not, not, not go towards the end of our life without having a plan, but thinking about things that matter, even though it's it's scary. So I think, yeah, Mac, the one who started gift ministry, is working on some stuff there that could, that could come out soon. That sounds like a great class that would be huge. What's your guys' vision for the future of this ministry? Where do you guys see some of the work that you're doing headed moving forward? Yeah, I think we're we're very fortunate to be in a church that has had very multiple tons of very generous people come through our doors and have been led to give to our church, not only our church, but also stuff around the world that's born amazing fruit for God. And I think that's something that I'd like to see kind of the next generation start to think about is, like, how those are some big shoes to fill? Like, people were very generous. How could we start to think about being good stewards of what we've been given, and think about, how can I how can I make an impact on the world with my finances? How can I let God grow my generosity? How can I be put in a position where I have maybe more resources to be able to share? And so I think that's something that I'd like to see us grow and think about is we shouldn't be afraid of money, necessarily. We should. We should have a good relationship with it, where we don't love it, but I think we should be thinking about thinking big picture. How can we be using money to really promote God's work around the world and within our own communities here? Yeah, I've talked about this before I would love as far as a vision for the future of the ministry. I see more women getting involved as counselors and leaders in this ministry. I think we have a need for that, you know, I don't know what, you know, what it's like. I don't really have a pulse on who's counselors now or who's not. You know, we kind of fly solo. We'll get, we'll get our assignments and do our meetings and stuff. And we don't really, since COVID, we don't really like get together very often, so I don't know like, but when I started, I don't think there were any women counselors, and yet, probably seven out of 10 single people that were coming to me, maybe more were young women. And yeah, and frankly, they usually would have their stuff together better than the young men that I would meet with. So I know that's not like a lack of, you know, people out there that can do it, not really sure what it is, but we could use you, you know, if you're inclined toward this type of stuff and you want to get involved, that would be pretty cool. Sounds like there's a plenty of oars to grab. Yeah? Gift ministries, absolutely. Yeah. You could help us with one on one meetings. You could help us run, like, bigger seminars. You know, I know we ran a seminar for your your neck of the woods, your your crew, yeah, a handful of home churches got together, and Josh and Dan came by and gave some good stuff. It was cool. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of people. And afterwards, I was maybe surprised by how few there were. Some people came up and asked us questions. Usually that's when people. Really ask their questions. Is, after the meeting, when they get you one on one, they're like, Okay, the real learning, yeah, exactly. And there wasn't a whole lot of that, but the people that did come up, it was all young men, and I don't think a single woman came and asked me a question, at least, maybe some maybe, but I just want it just made me wonder if we're not well represented, or if we could be if we were more represented in our counseling group, if that would change that dynamic of being able to provide good, yeah. You know, education, everybody, good point. So if I wanted to get a hold of one of you guys or one of the other gift counselors, how would I go about doing that? Text. Josh directly, 614, we have a go ahead. Yeah, we have a wonderful administrator. My beautiful wife, Maggie, you can set up a appointment through the website, gift ministry.org gift Oh, the website as gift ministry.it, might be.net dot u you guys know what.net is, but I think it's gift ministry.net but the email is gift council@gmail.com you said that, right? I didn't say, okay, yeah, that's what I would email the gift Council, gift counsel, C, O, U, N, S, E, l@gmail.com Did I get that right? That sounds right, yeah, that's how you get the ball rolling, and then the administrator will follow up with next steps and try to get an appointment set up with us. Yeah, awesome. What's one thing I can do in 2025 to not be an idiot with my money? The advice that, if you've met with me, you know that I've said this to everybody, and I always emphasize this, I would say, track your spending. That's the best. If you would just do like, I'll meet with people, we'll talk for an hour or two, and at the end I'll be like, Listen, if you're not going to do anything that I said or we talked about, that's fine, but please, if you do one thing, track your start tracking your spending. I think it's such it has the most bang for your buck in terms of how little time it takes compared to the impact that it can have. It's such a good discipline. It makes sure you know what's you know, what's going on with your money. You're not in the dark, you're not afraid, you know or whatever. And also it's just a simple principle of what gets measured gets managed. It's just natural. When you start to track something, you're just naturally going to start taking some steps to manage it. So you shared some scripture about that topic that stuck in my mind, about knowing the condition of your flocks. Yeah, there's a proverb that says, know well the condition of your flocks and give special attention to your herds, because money, because wealth, does not endure forever. Great scripture passage, right? Yeah, and I think it probably has maybe more in mind, like, sort of knowing, like, maybe more so than tracking, like a more comprehensive like, for those of us with a lot of like, you should know your assets and your liabilities, and kind of have a good sense of what's going on with your big picture. If you have you know a lot going on, because otherwise you might find that you lose it quickly, you know? Yeah, but yeah, the thing that's been rolling around in my mind is a discussion I had with a friend a couple weeks ago, who Dan knows well, and he was telling me about this, this $9 that he had sitting in an account, and he's like, I'm just gonna leave it in there and keep it rolling through and and then it got me thinking about, like, like he could, he's like, I could just withdraw it right now. And it got me thinking about, like, how many $9 decisions we make throughout like, our I don't know why that certain amount has stuck in my mind, but like, I guess around that time it was like Chipotle. I was thinking in terms of, like, Chipotle. It's around whatever. But if you consistently are making good decisions on those, like, in that small range, in the like five to $15 range, that can really make a difference over time. Let's say you're making three or four of those decisions a day, multiple a week. Not only that, once you get if you're if you're doing a good job there. Like, obviously, we all have to spend money. We make decisions. We want to live our lives and have fun, like Dan was saying. But the better you're get, you get at at least thinking about those purchases, then when you get to the bigger purchases, like, like buying a car or buying a house, yeah, I think you have that mindset of, like, I've been faithful. My little decisions, and that's going to make it easier to be faithful in the bigger decisions. And you've kind of trained yourself to to be able to do that. Yeah, that's the living out Jesus's words. Is what? Luke 16, yeah. And you're just practicing at a lower, you know, lower, lower scale. You know, you're just adding some zeros, basically, and, but so, so you've been able to practice with less risk, whereas we do see, like, I'm sure, Josh, you've had people come in to meet and they're like, you know, yeah, I'm just getting started with this. My wife and I, and we want to, you know, have kids, go down to one income, buy a house and put our kids in private school. What can we do? You know? Where can we get started? You know? And you're like, dang, you got some work to do. And that's, that's totally fine if you're there. I'm not trying to shame anybody or anything. Most people don't start working on this stuff till their 30s. Wow, I saw a stat on that recently. I think it's born out my experience, but, but, um, but, yeah, it's just that, you know, as you're practicing these disciplines, you're gonna have to do it with a little bit more at stake if you wait, you know, too long. And if you can avoid that, it'd be great. Yeah, we try to help people with that, as far as, like, what to add. I mean, I talked a little bit about it, but like, my thing sort of my, I guess, flavor as a count, I feel like every counselor has their thing, you know, or there's your counseling vibe, different perspective. But my like burden, I think, in meeting with people is always to emphasize their agency and autonomy, and exercising like their will, like it's your life. These are your choices. Most things that we make decisions on are not necessarily right or wrong or smart or dumb, but they're still decisions that you have to make. And I think that fits within the biblical framework. And, you know, sometimes I'll find myself counseling or just trying to empower people I meet with towards that, because I just get the sense that people feel, maybe, you know, afraid or just unsure about like that. This is my choice, you know, and just need a little bit of confidence, like you got this God's given you your money and your and your stuff, and he's given you this choice, and he is not going to be mad at you, you know, if you make a certain choice or whatever, like he just wants in most cases, you know, he wants you To make a choice that you want to do, you know? Yeah, one thing I like to emphasize with people is that money doesn't have to be this secretive topic that you're not you're not bringing up with people. And if you're single, it's probably good to have a friend or two that you can talk about finances with. And maybe you're not like, necessarily comparing incomes or exactly how much you spend on fast food, but just to have someone that you feel you can trust. And maybe if you're if you're married, you could have another couple that you're like, just, hey, this is what we're thinking about. Like, is this, have you guys experienced that? Just to have that conversation going, I think is a lot better than to just, like only analyze it in your own mind or just with your spouse. And I think that's really beneficial to have a friend or two that you can talk about finances with Josh and Dan. Thanks for your time, and I want to thank you, the listener, for joining our conversation today. If you like what you heard and you want to learn more about gift, check out dwell. Cc.org, backslash ministries, backslash gift. Or if you want to learn more about dwell community, church, check out dwell. Cc.org, and if you want to hear other interesting stories, check out dwell on these things, wherever you Get your podcasts, and make sure to subscribe. Thanks, you.