Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. All right, well, welcome to Dwell on These Things podcast. I'm here with Pat Reeder, our director of our equipping department here at Dwell Community Church. I'm Chris Hardy, and I get the privilege here of being able to help host this and talk with Pat a little bit about some of the things that our equipping department offers and things that go along with that. Pat, how you doing? Pretty good, man, glad to be here. Yeah, I've been here for about ten years now, came on staff in 2014, actually right in January, I think I started on January 2nd or something like that. And yeah, there's just been a lot of, it's been, you know, I inherited a very large and cool and well-functioning division from Mike Sullivan, who was here before me, and we have, yeah, obviously we have a bunch of classes that we oversee, I teach some of those, and we have the Zenos Summer Institute, we have, you know, and things like that. I mean, honestly, my history goes even further back than that, you know, I grew up in this church, I actually started taking essentially what we now call leadership training classes in high school. I took it with Jeff Gordon, our Christian principals class, in 1998, and... You didn't have to give the date, but... Yeah, oh yeah, it dates me just a little bit. Yeah, I actually scrubbed that, you know, it was actually maybe 2009 was when I was in high school, I'm just kidding. So yeah, and that was, it was awesome, you know, getting to take classes. Of course, not long after that, they banned high schoolers from taking it because they were constantly failing. Fortunately, I did not. I got credit for both those classes. What do you remember about those classes back then? I distinctively remember the learning the concept of total depravity, and the idea that our whole being is impacted by sin. And just, because the first class I took is, you know, just about, like, basic theology, like, what is the nature of sin, what is the nature of God. So I have a very clear memory of that class, that was with Jeff Gordon. A couple years later, I took some classes with Todd Fox on how to study Scripture, interpretation, the theology of Scripture, like verbal plenary inspiration, and, you know, it's interesting. I'm kind of surprised, but I have some fairly clear memories of learning those concepts for the first time, even though that was 25 years ago or more. Yeah. I, like you, also remember those first classes that I took here at our church. Mike Sullivan, we're teaching those principles classes, or the Christian ministry classes at that time, but one of my close friends and I would come up, you know, every Wednesday night. It was a whole event, you know, to take that class, and we were hearing theological, you know, stuff that, you know, was blowing our minds. Oh yeah. You know, basic theology, but we had never been exposed to that. Of course. And so those classes just, I look back on that with fond memories myself, but they were super formative for me, and then, you know, the classes that I've taken ever since then, every time that it's an event, it's a fun, exciting thing, and there's something that you learn, you get to be with friends, you kind of get to make a night out of it. Yeah. So it's not surprising that you can remember something going back that many years. Oh yeah. Because they are so formative. And then, so you have been in this church for some time, started taking classes, and then how did it come about that you became a quipping director? How did that, you said in 2014? Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, excuse me, after taking those classes, you know, I started to lead home churches, and it's a lot of the point of why we have some of these classes is there is a basic equipping purpose, but I think there's a goal, ultimately, when people start taking classes, that they're gonna live that out and serve people and teach the Bible. And so about 20 years ago, I started leading home churches, which, you know, was bumpy because I was pretty young, but I thought it was a lot of fun, too. I definitely had no interest in quitting, even when it was bumpy. I saw some some home groups not work, and that was disappointing, but I still, you know, I was like, I still believed in the idea that we need to multiply and that we need to both individually and mentoring and discipleship, but also seeing groups multiply. So I, you know, operated or sort of served this church in that capacity for a while, and I guess about 10 years, from about 03 to 13. I was also at that time in graduate school for philosophy and mathematics, and, you know, I was kind of, like, wondering about academia, like, is that really what I wanted? And, you know, was kind of praying about that, and this job opened up, and I was like, well, I mean, if God wants me to work in this capacity, I think I'd like that even more than, like, a stereotypical academic position. It would really give me... One of the prayers that I had around that time was I really wanted a job where I could spend a lot of time in prayer and, like, be close with God. And in some ways, the academic world is flexible, too, but I think that, you know, now I'm in a position where not only can I, you know, that, like, I can pray with my job, but in a very serious way, I must pray for my job. And so that was a really big answer prayer for me, because, you know, I was kind of really unsure about the future. The job market in academia is also a nightmare. It really has never recovered since 2008 financial crisis, and people that I knew who were there before that, you know, people got... many people that I knew in our program all got tenure-track jobs before 2008, and after that, it was all over the place. People have to journey all over the planet and, you know... To find a place that you can work. Exactly. And it was so... yeah, I was... this was an answer to prayer in many ways for me to have this opportunity to serve this Church and play the role that I do now. Well, you certainly have the education for it, no question. Having your PhD in philosophy and mathematics, you're a smart dude, one of the smartest guys I know, but... Aw, shucks. I'm glad that you have... I'm glad that you have this role, and I think that with the equipping department, it provides an opportunity for people in our Church, people who are interested in continuing to grow with Christ, to deepen their level of understanding, to invest in their walks on a personal level. You know, it takes a little bit of discipline to say, I'm gonna... I want to enroll in this class, and I'm gonna attend for, you know, however many weeks the class goes for, and... because I'm serious about wanting to grow in my walk with Christ. And so, you know, I was wondering, you know, how have you seen these classes impact people? Obviously, you shared how they've impacted your life, and I can echo that as well. How have you seen classes and things that the equipping department is able to put forward impact the lives of people in our Church and others? Yeah, I mean, I think part of that has to do with the diversity of options that we provide, you know, so we go through Bible books, you know, and I think you see students, like, seeing stuff click in a classroom on Bible books that were issues that maybe were harder for them to understand when there was just them by themselves kind of poking through in their private devotional time, and I think that can be cool. And of course, as, you know, we are talking about for ourselves, you know, we have our leadership training classes, and you know, there's all these people who go into those classes somewhat green in terms of their understanding of Scripture, the theology, and all that, you know, which kind of... a lot of that systematic theology provides scaffolding and sort of boundaries for scriptural exposition, for Bible teaching, for discipleship, and so it really kind of gets set, like, those types of classes, like those leadership training classes, those really practical classes, well, broadly practical classes, you know, have a huge impact on our workforce. Absolutely. But also, I actually had a pretty cool experience of somebody coming up to me recently, I taught a class on introduction of the Bible almost ten years ago, and she was like, yeah, I was in that class, and it was kind of a big class, I mean, there might have been like 50 to 70 people in there. So I confessed to her, I didn't remember, but she said, she was like, yeah, I had just come to faith and was just starting to take my faith seriously, and that was a really, really fun class and really appreciated that, and so... That's awesome. It's fun to have stuff come back around years later where someone was like, oh yeah, I was there, and that was great. So you know, having the concept, yeah, like that class in particular highlights the sort of the grand narrative, so to speak, of Scripture, and having someone learn that for the first time and appreciate that God, the way God operates within His Word and how He's got a big plan and a big picture that He's unraveling in history, that can be po... Yeah, I think that's a powerful thing to learn for the first time and to, and then to kind of use that in your own personal time and understanding with God. Like, this isn't just like a jumble of ideas, this is, there's a big picture behind this, and it fits together, and when things don't look like they fit together, that means take the extra time to learn, because there's very good reason to believe that this is one divine author behind the 66 books. It was, and just kind of reflecting on my time taking classes, I can remember very distinctly early on taking an introductory class to the Bible and being faced with homework, memory verses, reading Scripture, and that's something I was very interested in, and as a very young Christian, realizing I had, you know, kind of a choice here in my own life where, okay, am I gonna, is this something I really want to investigate, is this something I really want to take seriously, because if so, I have this wonderful resource here, this great opportunity. And at that time, I was still kind of, well, I was very green, I was young in the Lord, and I remember being faced with the final exam coming up, and my roommate and I, who were both taking the class, he was far more studious than I and had much better study habits, was pretty, you know, he was ready to go, we would go in, we'd take the exam, I'm sweating bullets, we get out, and you know, what a few days or a week goes by, we get the grade, and I got, I think, like a 30% on my exam. It might have even been a 13. I think there's a 3 in it, and I know it was below 40. Either way, my buddy passed it, of course, sharp guy. And so there I was faced at that moment with kind of, it was a crossroads in my walk with God, I felt like. I see that now, looking back on it at least clearly. And so either I was going to really put the study in and take it seriously and take the retake exam, or I was just gonna blow it off and say forget about it and go about my life doing something else. And luckily the Lord had put this good friend in my life, and he was very patient with me and tried to help me with, you know, this is how you need to study this, and worked with me on it. Well anyways, I remember one night in particular, sitting there with my notes in front of me and studying verses, and really it being crystallized in my mind, this is something I'm gonna have to take seriously. I want it. I want to do this. And you know, for some people you may think of a class like the church offers, and it's, maybe it's, you know, it's not that big of a deal, or it's just, you know, it's an introductory thing. For me, it was not that way. It was very much a shaping of my spiritual walk, and so I decided to take it seriously, I put the work in, and I went back and aced the exam. Nice. And that was the last time I ever, you know, failed one of those exams, but it was a change and a turning point in my life that had a significant role. And so I know I felt that impact, you've seen it with others, you've felt that impact, and I know that there are countless other people in our Church who have also experienced that. I was wondering, though, thinking back on the Equipping Department in general, what, to your knowledge, has been some of the history there with the Equipping Department? I know that you guys host the Summer Institute every year, which is a huge undertaking with a lot of people working to help make that happen, but what are some of the other areas along with that that has kind of formed into what we now know as our Equipping Division in our Church? Yeah, that's a great question. From what I understand, in the 1970s, when our Church was pretty young still, there really weren't classes. It was, you know, hey, here's some books, let's read some books together, you know. You know, people would learn, of course, you know, thinking of equipping in the broadest possible sense, you know, of course people were being equipped by the Central Teachings, they were being equipped by their Discipleship Meetings, you know. Right. But if somebody wanted maybe a more formalized equipping environment, that really wasn't there. You know, maybe they'd have, like, a Summer Seminar or something like that. What we look at now, the kind of equipping that we have now, I think, started in the early 80s, and it was the ancestor of leadership training class. It was something they called just Discipleship. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's good. Very, very straightforward. But really, it served the same purpose. What do you need to effectively lead a home group? To be able to teach the Bible, to understand how to minister to the needs in that group, to, you know, this kind of stuff. And really forming within these leaders at the time, you know, forming in those leaders at that time, you know, just getting that theology straight, getting, you know, kind of showing, like, here are some ideas that are kind of out there, those are out of bounds, you know. There have been, you know... Here's an orthodox understanding of what the Bible is, and here's the unorthodox, you know. Exactly. Like, maybe some, you know, there's always some, like, stuff that was, like, you know... I think especially this was more true back then, but you know, you had... there's just Christian views all over the place, right? And so this is kind of, like, presenting things in a fairly straightforward, you know, for lack of a better word, evangelical teaching, you know. And helping people understand why we believe the things that we do. It's not just, this is it, and here it is, but why do we believe this? And understanding that becomes an essential part of growth. That's a really good, that's an important qualification. This is not like a catechism, you know. The point is, we're learning this stuff, and every single thing you're learning is being anchored in Scripture. So part of this is, how do we let this, in a way, how are we allowing the Scripture itself to dictate our understanding? And drawing on what the Bible teaches about God, and really making sense of that primarily. And at key points, you know, saying, like, hey, this is what we believe, but you know what? Actually, the biblical case for this is not as clear as, say, this doctrine. You know, like, how we understand certain issues are not the same, say, as the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. They are not the same as salvation by faith alone. You know, there's certain things... An essential core truth. Right. And helping people sort that out, I think, is really, really important. So that was kind of how that started in the early 80s, and I think has evolved into and became, you know, eventually it was, I think it was called theology for a time, and then it was called Christian principles, and now we... And then it was called Christian ministry. You know, we've kind of gone through a lot of names, you know, so... But the substance underneath each one of those classes and the goals was fairly consistent. And I think as time went on, that they added in more classes, they added in more... There was a time where they had kind of something like a more of a, like, called like a seminar for advanced stuff, which kind of is what our TEDS program does now, or like where we're sending people to get master's degrees, you know, this was kind of like, how do we help people go past that leadership training level and get even further equipped? But yeah, I think, you know, we have the form that that takes now as we have the Extension site here. Right. So yeah, tell me about that, this part, the partnership with Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. That's a big part of the history in the equipping department here at our church. Yeah, I mean, one of the cool things about that is, you know, before that, there were people who did go to seminary, you know. So we had this seminar thing I just mentioned, but people would go to seminary, especially people who came on staff full-time and who were teaching regularly would maybe go to Ashland, you know, and they'd have to commute, which is almost an hour at that time. Or no, it's almost two hours, I think, from Columbus. It's a solid commute, and they just have to drive. That was just how they did it. And, you know, they also had to, you know, walk uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes, you know. Just kidding. But it does seem like there were some significant inconveniences of that time. You know, and I think there were people who would also go even further away, you know, and they get their training, you know. I think some people did go to Chicago to Trinity. But it would pull them away from their home, their family, and their ministry. All the work they're doing, all the service they're doing, really kind of puts a big kind of moratorium on what you can do, and you don't know if that person is going to be there when you get back, and... Right. So I think it has... So I think in the early 2000s or maybe late 90s, we approached Trinity and said we'd like to host an extension site, and so we did that from 2002, and actually this year we're probably gonna wrap that up, because, yeah, I mean, with the way online education is, the extension site doesn't make the same sense as it used to, because there's a lot more options out there. But... So their choice of extension sites was not made lightly. I mean, they... My understanding is that when they, at that time, had chosen to partner with an extension site, there was some thorough, you know, investigation, I guess you could say, on the Church that they were partnering with or on the fellowship that they were involved in, and so when they were doing that with us, if I'm understanding correctly, that would have been back in the late 90s or early 2000s, is that right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, the nice... Basically, the cool thing is, though, in that history, I mean, we've equipped an entire generation through that program, you know. Anyone on staff now, full-time staff who has a seminary degree, got it through that program. And they've gone through Trinity. That's incredible. What a great provision from the Lord, and what an awesome partnership that has been for so many years. So tell me about this. You mentioned how there's been a transition with online, seminary, extension site, classes through Trinity, but I imagine we've also seen quite a bit of evolution in terms of the way equipping has had to deal with these types of things as well, with how people are learning, and what classes look like, and so forth. Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. So one of the things that we're starting to see is, I think, just as a society at large, is a adoption of online media, wholesale. You know, and that people learn how to cook food from watching a YouTube video, or Instagram, or, you know, there's like many different areas where the online information is coming into the home. And I don't think that's necessarily bad, you know. Probably watching someone actually cook something is easier than reading in a cookbook. And so I think that just kind of thinking through, you know, not the technologies here, and then the question becomes, like, should we adopt this technology? It has been a question we've always had. And my initial thought on this is as follows. I just have to say, the best way to learn is in person, you know. That's because you can interact directly with the instructor immediately, and you can also, you work with, you're with the other students. That really is the best, and we do not want to see that go away here at Dwell. We still have lots of classes that we're offering every single week. You know, I think right now we have about 400 people in classes, which is really exciting during this first winter term. And so that's something we never want to lose, you know, that people—and I think there's also maybe even certain content that I think we will never allow to be fully online, like our leadership training class. I just, again, I think that there's something unique about in-person learning. And so I think, but I think bearing that in mind, I also think there's a question of what can we do without losing sight of that kind of goal or those values, and what are things that could be taught in an online format? And so, you know, right now I'm working on a class on the book of Job through a podcast medium, so we're basically releasing these into the public. The show's called Hammer and Fire, based on Jeremiah 23 29, where God says, is my word not like a fire and a hammer that smashes to pieces? So it's like kind of this, you know, metal verse. And we decided to switch hammer and fire because we thought fire and hammer didn't sound as cool, so that's why we did it. But anyhow, we're calling it Hammer and Fire, and you know, so far so good, you know? It's like, I think when it comes to Bible classes and things like that, you know, and I think in general we're trying to appeal to people whose present lifestyle is not as naturally compatible with turning up on a Wednesday night. Being able to come in person. And so a podcast like you're describing with Job, these are essentially episodes that you've recorded that you're able to put out in that format, and you're working through the book of Job. It's a Bible study. Exactly. It's a pretty cool way to be able to take in some of that. I know that I, myself, and I know many others, we're listening to podcasts all the time. Exactly. And so whether or not I have an availability to actually attend a class, outside of that even, I have throughout my day time that I use, and I'm doing something, and I'm listening to a podcast. If I'm driving, if I'm sitting and studying, or just wanting to listen to a podcast, you know, it's another way, if I'm understanding what you're saying, to be able to get the word into people's minds and their hearts. Exactly. It's not the only way. And yeah, I think that's pretty cool. I know I would never want to lose in-person education when it comes to this kind of thing, because as I shared earlier, so many of my memories from the classes, the formative classes that I took involve that unique fellowship that you get with your classmates, your friends, your teacher. You know, I look back on those memories with great fondness, and that's not something you get in an online class. You can still get great information, but you miss out on some, you know, all of the additional things that come with that. Exactly. And you know, I think too that there's, obviously there's different learning styles. People are going to learn maybe better in one way or another, and so being able to kind of hit all of those different things for people, I think, you know, is a cool way of being able to expose people to the Word and good Bible teaching. So, you know, regardless of how we're intaking our study time, how we're spending time reflecting on God's Word, learning about Christian theology, learning about our faith, learning about how to serve directly in the different roles God has given to us, these are all things classes provide. And I'm just, you know, thinking back on people that I've interacted with over time who are friends of mine who also were, you know, at different points in classes with me, taking classes with me, and how impactful that is as far as our growth with God is concerned. Over time, seeing that kind of commitment to a lifestyle of learning and being interested in never coming to the end of the knowledge of all that God wants to teach us, what are your thoughts on the importance of pursuing that kind of a posture, of a learning posture as a Christian when we're walking with Christ? I mean, I think it's honestly essential. You know, I think that actually in this Job class, you know, that we, me and my colleague Silas Young are doing, we talked about this issue with Solomon. You know, like, you have people who were once considered wise and who have catastrophic moral failures. And you know, I don't think it... I don't know if everyone that's listening here is gonna be going from, you know, the King of Israel to an idol worshiper, but I think there's something to be understood there, that, you know, that if we don't deliberately push back against, you know, what we were talking about in that environment, what we were talking about spiritual entropy, you know, there's a kind of push towards disorder. There's a kind of natural process that will lead to us breaking down spiritually, and if we do not push against that, it will consume us. So I think having that, for one, first just acknowledging that, you know, that you see examples of... not only do you see examples in Scripture like that, you know, David made some very foolish choices, you know, and many others, you know. You also, you see people that you know and love who started strong and fell away. And I think that having that ongoing posture of humility, trying to go deeper with God and trying to understand Him better, is absolutely essential. It's such a dangerous thought to have. I've heard this all before, you know, that... and, you know, none of us are immune to having those thoughts. Sure. I know, I've felt that. Oh, I've heard this before. Yeah, I know about that. And, you know, if I'm able to catch myself and realize, you know, that what a horrible attitude that is. And am I really saying I've heard all of this? You know, whatever the teaching in Scripture is, I know it exhaustively and completely. No, of course I don't. And so, and I think that speaks to the humility that you're talking about, the idea that we need to be reminded of even the most basic truths in Scripture. And it brings Peter's call to mind, that I want to bring this back up by way to stir you with this reminder. And he says that multiple times. You know, there's no point where, as a follower of Christ, you know, before we are with Jesus, where we should feel like, I've got this figured out, and there's no more that needs to be investigated here, and I've heard it all before. What a dangerous attitude that is. Yeah, and I think part of why I wanted to emphasize that is that, while I do believe that someone should continually pursue equipping, continually look for ways to learn, you know, sort of in the mind, cognitively, I think that's necessary, but I think it's not sufficient in itself, because someone could just fill their minds with knowledge. Yes. And so part of what I think is, yes, keep learning, but make sure that that learning is in combination with a spirit of humility, of like, truly receiving from God and having that heart heart posture of humility before Him, that as I'm learning, that this isn't to sort of like make myself some great thing, but that we're going out there and loving other people, that we're... It's not to puff up my ego. If I'm taking it in like the Dead Sea without any sort of outlet, it's about us growing closer to God, but then taking what God has given us and sharing that out with others. So, yeah, totally. Couldn't agree more. And I think that that is a warning, a reminder, that we should all consider when it comes to our personal walks with God and how effective we can be in following after Christ in this life. Because, you know, the other thing is is that, you know, Solomon says there's nothing new under the sun, and, you know, we know that a lot of the ways that we can turn away from God and fall from Him, you know, are kind of recycled things that humans have been falling into for millennia. But that also suggests that there's probably a similar response, which involves turning to God's Word and being filled up with what He has to share with us. And so this idea of kind of getting your spiritual life to a point where you've plateaued is a dangerous precedent. Yeah. What do you think are some solutions? Yeah. Obviously, we're talking about classes, equipping. How is the equipping department able to help people get out of that mindset and be reminded of the things that are most important? I think there are a few things to say about that. I mean, part of it is there might just have to be, like, witnessing people that you thought were doing great, you know, fall on their face, which is scary, and, you know, but that'll come. Or falling yourself. Yeah, falling yourself. I mean, so clearly—and I don't mean that you need to wait for that, because it will come. You'll see people grow weak and lose their way, and that's sad, but it's a reality. But that you will—that you're instructed by that. Whether that's, again, as it's your own failure, like confronting your own foolishness in a new way, or if it's seeing someone else that you thought was strong kind of stumbling and losing their way. You know, those are opportunities to learn, you know. I think— I remember after seeing someone I cared about a lot losing their way, and seeing the word in, I think, 1 Corinthians 10-12, where he's like, do not think you stand lest you fall. You know, there's this sort of—this assumption that, like, people who think they're all set and that there's nothing more to do, or that they're just firmly planted, may be the greatest in danger. We have to have a sense of, like, I need to continue to push. And so, you know, taking the lesson from seeing those things. I think another thing is—so, some people might not have that—I think everyone is in danger of that risk, but I think that someone might just genuinely be like, hey, I do want to keep learning, but how do I do that? I'm like a new dad or a new mom. I've got, you know, I'm really busy right now. My life doesn't look like it did when I was 19 and could take all the classes, you know, one right in a row, one after another. Right. So, I think there's a practical piece here that—and that's exactly why we're trying to develop this material—is, like, how can we help bridge that gap? You know, like, maybe the best situation is to be in person whenever you can. But we need to find a way that, in the, I don't know, five-ish years, where someone might not be— Raising young children. Right. How do we reach that person? And that's really where we're kind of coming in with some of these other ideas, you know. And I mentioned my podcast, but, you know, I think James Rochford has also put together some online materials, and we're gonna try to find a way in the equipping division to kind of push those out. You know, we're still actually working on how that might work. I love the creativity with that. It's not abandoning the core method that we have seen tried and true for many decades in our Church. Yeah. It's creatively maintaining that and adapting other outlets to be able to meet people where they're at, and help equip them at that stage in life. Exactly. So filling in that practical need, you know, helping people find books and things that, you know, making sure that they're reading stuff, and keeping caught up instead of, you know, well, I can't take classes so I can't do anything. You know, it's like, no, how can we get—reach that, you know, young mom? Or reach, you know, we've got, at least in our Church—and of course, some of these tools can be used around the world. I know we have brothers and sisters in West Africa that are starting to take interest in this stuff. But yeah, essentially it's like, based on sometimes people's life stage, you know, you're getting older, you don't want to drive at night. You can't drive at night. Or maybe if you're old enough, you're not driving at all anymore, but you might still want to learn. You might—like, we don't want to just be like, well, sorry, it's Wednesday nights or nothing. Right, right. You know, and so I just want to sort of use the tools that we have to fill in that practical gap. And you know, obviously if we put resources in front of people and they're still not interested, then maybe that's an indication that there is a heart problem, like, I've heard this all before, whatever. But you know, at least we can give them the benefit of doubt and put stuff in front of them instead of just making it really hard. Right, and you know, this idea of wanting to try these other methods to be able to meet felt needs that we see, and then also you have the benefit of certain things being like this in a podcast form, or a class in that form, or anything like that that is available online being also available to people outside of the city. Exactly. People who aren't here necessarily at our home base. So that makes a lot of sense. And I think that, you know, this is really touching on that foundational principle we value so much in this Church, which is maintaining that spirit of learning and wanting to be filled up with God's Word, never resting on accomplishments or developing that posture of, I've heard it all before, not allowing a sense of plateauing, but wanting to finish this walk that the Lord has given to us well by maintaining this spirit of learning. How else, you know, I'm imagining somebody listening to this podcast now who's maybe in a spot, like some of the folks that we were just mentioning, who a Wednesday night, right now at this point in their life, is just not as available, but they have a desire to learn, and yet at the same time they have a million distractions in life that are trying to pull them away from that. What kind of advice would you give to somebody maybe who's sitting in a position like that listening to us here? Don't give up. I know that sounds cheap, but I think there is a significant element here where people just need to recognize that life is involved, life has stages. You know, I honestly, right now my kids are seven and four, and a few years ago I just was like, could not believe how crazy my life was, and it was almost like it will never change. It's crazy now and it will always be crazy. And now they're older and it's not anymore, and it's like the clouds have lifted. So I think part of it is just people need to get the long view, first of all, and I think another one that's really important is people should start small, you know, thinking about like lifting weights, for example. You don't put, you know, 350 pounds or something on your, yeah, day one. You need to start small. I also think, which is related to the starting small, is doing it as frequently as possible, but smaller rather than big all at once. Okay. So instead, you know, if it's like I need to be studying the Bible, you know, I want to, I feel like I'm really exhausted, I've been working all the time, or my kids are crawling all over me, I'd be like, okay, you know what, just read one proverb every day. For example, you know, like read something really small and just don't feel bad about it. Don't feel bad that like when you were 20 you read five chapters of the Bible every single day and prayed for three hours or, you know, whatever. The comparison isn't helpful in any way, because it's not realistic. Yeah, and I think even the evil one likes to accuse people on that too, like, you remember how spiritual you were back then? You're like, it's like, no, just... And then you're flooded with guilt, and then that guilt makes you just want to give up to begin with. Yeah, so I'm saying, no, okay, maybe you could lift more, you know, going back to that analogy, maybe you could lift more when you were younger, but that's not where you're at now and that's okay. So again, start small and build back up. And so I think that's, you know, that, and again, specifically on that point, that's part of how we designed the class is this, you know, this podcast or class on Job, each episode's under a half an hour. It's like, you should be able to get in and get out, and there's no... Well, you can also pause it. You can pause it. You know, you've got a screaming kid or, you know, you got to put the kids down, maybe you listen to a little bit during lunch and then you can listen to some later on at night, and yeah, that's cool. Reading good little devotionals, you know, one thing I've been doing personally in this stage of life is I've been reading, you know, Charles Spurgeon's Morning and Evening, and real... it's one page, and it's really edifying, and I read it as soon as I wake up, but it's before I get out of bed. And then I still read the Bible later, but I'm like, frankly, other people don't have the freedom to read the Bible later, but it's like, man, that's a great little devotional. You know, really dense, really thoughtful. You read it in five minutes, and you're just like, man, I'm like chewing on that for like days and weeks after that. That's cool. Yeah. So those are... I would say that would be my advice for people who are kind of starting to feel that slowdown or boredom or, you know, any of the other number of things that could kind of push them down that road. Don't give up. Don't give up. Start small. That's what I say. And I think that's really... that's a really good piece of advice, and... because at any point in time, our lives are going to be changing. You know, that high school syndrome that we all are familiar with, where you're in high school, you feel like that's your entire life, and you'll never be out of it, and everything, and it's four years, and it's gone, and you look back on it, and still there are some people who still live like they're in that four-year time span, but there are others who, you know, move on, and unfortunately, I think that it's not isolated to just high school. We can find ourselves stuck in that kind of type of thinking, where my life's gonna be like this always, like you shared with when you had young kids, and no, we go through seasons. God is a big God. He knows exactly... He knew the moment that you placed your trust and faith in Christ that you would be going through the thing you're going through right now. He knew that at that time, and He also has provided for you different ways to be able to draw close to Him. He hasn't left. He hasn't abandoned you. He's right there, and in some ways, closer in those times of great need than more available to us, and even though it may be more difficult for us to even understand that, or to realize it. And I think that's a good reminder, regardless of where you be at this point in your life and in your walk with Christ, God is right there. He has not abandoned you, and the grace of Christ is able to work into our lives and into our hearts and affect you in such a way that even in your potentially diminished capacity right now, His power is greater than that, and what are... maybe the thought that you can have is, what can you do? What little step can you take? What little bit of weight can you lift up to begin that turning to Him and allowing Him to speak into your heart and into your life? Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. You really just kind of... I like what you gave the example of the high school. It reminds me of Uncle Rico, you know? You don't want the Uncle Rico syndrome, where Napoleon Dynamite's uncle is just always... he's like, you know, staring at the mountains. He's like, I bet I can throw a pigskin over the mountains. It's just like, all he's thinking about was the glory days when he was the football QB, and yeah, exactly. It's like, we can't just look back on the past, it's not there anymore. But what does God have for me today? And not just turning into Uncle Rico. Yeah, I think that's great. That's wonderful advice. Well, Pat, I appreciate your time. Oh yeah, it's been fun. Thanks for taking us through this, and I would encourage anyone listening to this to consider looking through the class list. Where can somebody, maybe who isn't as familiar, find out the kind of things that we offer for them to, you know, be a part of? Yeah, I think each term we have the classes that are coming up next, and those can be found on dwellcc.org slash classes, and there's a little menu there and you can find where it says upcoming classes, and you can find a list there. And every now and then that list might be smaller than others, like if there's a bunch that just started, but then usually after a short amount of time we'll release those again. So right now there's a pretty nice list there that people can look at. If there's a class that you're interested in, you click the link, you follow that to the registration, you can register right there. Right there. That's great. And if people want to listen to your podcast or other future podcasts, how are they found? Yeah, the podcasts, I think you can just find those on the normal, all the various places podcasts are found, you know, Apple, Spotify, Amazon, you know, you just, you know, you just type in the name and there it is, like this one here is Dwell on These Things, you know, you just type that in, and actually my podcast on a lot of those platforms is linked to this one, like it's part of what the Dwell Community Church releases. If you click on that as sort of the producer, you can find this, my show, as one of the other shows. Yeah, good, so shouldn't be hard to find. Wonderful. Well, thanks again for your time, and I hope everyone listening considers kind of the spot that they're in, and maybe the Lord is opening a door for you, or maybe He's trying to remind you of a way that you could draw a little bit closer to Him, and never give up that desire to learn from what He wants to teach us, so that you can go and take that and share it with others. And that's the whole point of being equipped, and that's the great gift that we have here in our church and through the Holy Spirit's work in all ages. Well, thanks for listening to Dwell on These Things. If you're interested in listening to more of this, you can search us by that name, Dwell on These Things. You can also find us on our website at dwellcc.org. Thanks.