Welcome to Dwell on these Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. One of the things that we take very seriously here at Dwell is a great commission that Christ called us all to in Matthew 28. And so today I'm really that today and for the history of the church that's really driven what we do at Dwell. And today I'm going to be speaking with a couple of people that really took that call that Christ made in Matthew 28 seriously. And that's Chris and Amy Guessler who served in Cambodia since 2004. So we're really grateful to have them here today. And they're going to tell us a little bit about their experiences and some of the things that they learned about missions, some of the things they learned about themselves and how God worked in their character over the years. So Chris and Amy, welcome and it's great to have you here. They're here on home assignment for a few months. And so this is unique opportunity to speak with them. And again, so you arrived in 2004 in Cambodia. Chris and I have known each other before that. We worked together at Calumet and have continued to follow each other's career path here over the years. But I was wondering if you could share with us what was it like as you look at the call in Matthew 28 and you thought about your own spiritual journey, you know, the decision to go overseas. Tell us a little bit about that process and how God worked there. Sure. You know, Amy and I always tell people that we were never, you know, chomping at the bit to go to the mission field. It was never a dream of ours. We were totally content and excited about what God was doing here in Columbus and we wanted to be a part of that. And we were content to do that. As it turned out, you know, we had some friends that were in the missions. We ended up going on a short-term trip in 2001. No, yeah, 2001. And that really opened our eyes. I think that was the first time that Amy and I had been out of the country, actually. But we fell in love with Cambodia. We were absolutely, I think we were kind of terrified going into it. Like, we didn't know what was going to happen. And I think we came away from that feeling like, wow, we really like the people. We feel like we could see God doing a lot there. And we felt that, you know, just physically, we could probably actually live there and not, you know, die. So we came back and we started praying about it. And at that time, 12 was looking to send people to Cambodia. And I guess our mantra, the whole, you know, from that point forward was, you know, we'll continue to walk forward and step forward and let God put the brakes on, you know, the whole thing if he doesn't want us to go. So we took steps and applied and went through a whole process there and got affirmed all those things. And that's kind of how we ended up in Cambodia in a nutshell. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I think at first, when we first got married, like Chris said, we were pretty adamant about, like, you don't want to go to the mission field, do you? No, I don't either. But we wanted to, we saw God's heart for missions and for the nations. So we saw ways that we could get involved from Columbus. So I think that was a big part of the process too, is that we were friends with people that were going to the mission field. We started supporting missionaries financially and through prayer. And so we started investing in different ways. And we saw that as something that this is what we can do. This is great, you know. But I think I still had in my heart, in a way, like the worst thing God could ask me to do is to move to like a third world country. So I think that was scary. But God, I think affirmed things by the fact that both of our hearts started to change. We started to say, we could be open to this. We can make ourselves available. I think we would have been okay if God said, I want you to stay in Columbus. And this is what I see for you guys. But we just said, we're available. And if you want to send us, we're available to go. And that's where I think we've just opened ourselves up to that. And he kept opening doors. That's a great story. Thanks for sharing that. How do you, I mean, so that was kind of the processes after you went on the short-term trip. And then prior to that, how do you believe that God prepared you for the eventual decision to go overseas? Is it in ministry your own character, things of that nature? I think God taught us a lot about patience and failure before we went. That prepared us to be able to persevere through difficult things on the mission field. I would say that's one of the most important things that prepared us. Yeah. I remember too, like, after we got married, I know we desired to be in leadership and home church leadership on the servant team and things like that. And to what Amy was saying, it felt like it wasn't coming fast enough. And I think she was alluding to there with the patience and learning to kind of put the brakes on things, to kind of allow God to work in our lives was a big thing there too. Okay. So you follow God's call. He continues to open doors and you find yourself in Panampen in 2004. Of course, there's a lot of history since then. And I was just wondering, you know, just for those who are listening in, what's it like to be a missionary? What's it, you know, day to day? Just describe a little bit of what that's like. Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I think I've said this before, but you know, when you get married, there's kind of like, there's a lot of preparation. There's a lot of counseling involved. There's people telling you what it could be like and the things that you might have a problem with, especially early on. And it kind of felt like that to me, you know, in a way is that I didn't really understand it until we got there. And it was a lot different and very challenging in ways that I don't know if I really comprehended before we went. Maybe unpack that a little bit, but things that were surprises or challenges that you didn't anticipate. Well, yeah, I guess you just, like for me, you know, a lot of it revolved around, you know, back in Columbus, we were doing ministry. Right. We were in home church leadership. I was working, I had a job, obviously. And I felt like there were a lot of things that I could do, you know, like rather well. And you kind of go from that kind of like the way that is to going to a place that you've never lived before and to a people that you can't really talk to. And it really kind of rips away all those things that you didn't really even realize that you were taking significance from. And you're left with kind of nothing. I can't even go and, you know, buy something at the store effectively. And so you feel kind of like kind of naked and unable to do anything. And so I think that was a real shocker for both of us and was something that, you know, took some time to work there. Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree. I think the, it's just your identity is kind of ripped away in a sense. And it's really, it's really awful in one sense because like he said, you feel like you can't do anything well. I mean, even to the point, obviously it's different between when we first arrived and 20 years later, hopefully, right? But I mean, we're still, when we do Bible studies, when we teach, we're doing it in a second language. And there's still a component of you're not able to sound as eloquent and have the right wording exactly how you would do it in English, you know. So there is still just a real learning of just being humble and realizing that you're going to show up and make yourself available. And that God can work through that, you know. And so I think there's a grappling with taking your identity from Christ, knowing that you're going to depend on God's power. And that if you step out in faith, he's going to provide the power to do those things that he's putting in front of you. So I think it's, yeah. Because there's some days like for me, even with the language that, and I know we feel like this even in ministry, as we're doing ministry in your own language, you feel like sometimes, you know, home church is there and you're like, I don't really want to go tonight. I don't see a purpose or, but sometimes I would go to Bible studies and it would take everything in me to even go out the door, you know, because I'm like, this is my second language. You know, what if I can't say this correctly? What if it doesn't have this impact the way I want it to? And so it's just like saying, okay, God, you've put this in front of me and I'm going to step out and make myself available. Yeah. That's really powerful. It's interesting, the connection between your calling as you begin to pray about going to Cambodia and then it's about being available to take the next step. And it seems that's just a theme that's continued on through your time in Cambodia. I'm going to make myself available. So that's really, that's really, and I remember Chris, it was probably back in maybe 2005 when you shared that about your identity being stripped away. And I thought that was really, it's really powerful. And it would be a time where people could just give up and just say, I'm done with this, but you guys persevered. So that's really, really commendable. Yeah. And I think a lot of times, you know, things don't go as you plan them to go too. And so there's like kind of an adjustment or flexibility in seeing what God's plans are going to bring about and how he's going to provide in different ways. Yeah. You think things are going to go one way and then something happens and you're like, okay, I guess that's not it. Yeah. Yeah. So did you, or can you think about how as you arrived in Cambodia, as you've continued on in the role God's called you to there, did you notice any significant changes in your relationship with Christ, and especially those first few years compared to when you would just come from, you know, the U.S. And you think of any changes that occurred there? Well, I mean, I would say that there was, there had to be like a self motivation to kind of, you know, make sure that you were getting into the word and make sure that, you know, you're feeding yourself and everything like that and feeling that a lot of the tools that we had back here weren't available, like fellowship in the sense that we were used to it, taking classes, all these things that we'd come to enjoy to teach even were things that we weren't really doing when we first went over. And we felt like, you know, this is, this feels like we kind of have to bootstrap ourselves, you know, and kind of make sure that we're pushing in on these things and making sure that they're getting done. So it was just a lot more determination, I guess, to make sure that the, you know, the time in the word and prayer and all that stuff was getting done. Yeah, I think, you know, back when we went in 2004, it's hard to think of this, but I don't think like, you know, you would say now, do you guys listen to some teachings, you know, or whatever, and that wasn't even available back then? That's right. So I think there was definitely a time of isolation of not having fellowship, you know. We had a small community of like other people on our missions team that we'd get together for a Bible study once a week, like kind of like a home church. But there was definitely an aspect of, I think, just growing and your ability to get in the word for yourself and prayer and being dependent on God, a lot more for that. Yeah, because, you know, I think there are, I think it's made us really appreciate all the resources we have. Like when we come back, even on home assignment, to be in fellowship, to be under great teaching, that's not over there. There's not a summer institute, like we have here. That's right. But I mean, the cool thing is, is that since now we have a, my church over there, that we have fellowship now. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to add that Amy mentioned that we have fellowship now and it's awesome. There was a time, which maybe we'll talk about here at some point, that we didn't have teammates that was very difficult and we really didn't have a body of Christ in the sense that we do now. And so that's been something I think has been really a real blessing from God that we have that now. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that because I think that that was an important time, a difficult time for you as a couple. Maybe just share a little bit about, yeah, there was a long time where there was just the two of you there and how did you navigate that? Yeah. Yeah. So we moved to Kampongchang in 2008. Yeah. Right. And at that time we moved with two other families, expat, missionaries family, moved up there with us. And so, and there was kind of a, from our leadership, there was a push to go out into the province because it was least, you know, less reached than what was happening in Phnom Penh. And so we're excited about that. It also meant though that we were going to homeschool our kids. And so there's a lot of challenges that we were thinking about, but we were like, we're moving with these other teammates and this is going to be, you know, we'll do it together, camaraderie and everything. But then for different circumstances, both of those families had to leave within the next, the first year we were there. So, yeah. So we were kind of left thinking, okay, what are we going to do? Are we going to keep moving forward and see what God has for us? Yeah. Or we're going to not stay. Right. I don't remember if we had that conversation or not. We did. But that's, I have always admired your perseverance in the midst of, yeah, difficult lonely, but you kept moving forward. When you first arrived in Cambodia in 2004, you got to KC in 2008. What were, and of course we have the benefit of hindsight right now, but what, at that time, if you can think back, what were some of the goals that you had? I mean, obviously, language acquisition is the first thing, but as you thought about what, what kind of goals did you think about it? What kind of goals did you have as you move forward? Well, just moving out to KC, Campongchang. Our big goal at that point, the vision that was out there before us was to initially start a school. And we really didn't know what we were doing as far as education. We're not from an education background, but we were trying to meet and we were praying for relationships. First, I think that was one of the first things that we really prayed for about KC was being introduced and connecting with the right people that could help with something like that. There just aren't many resources up there where we live in Campongchang. There's about 80,000 people. There's not many Christians. So that was the big thing, I think, moving out there that we really prayed a lot for connections to start a school, which we wanted to have as a platform, because there was a real need for education in Campongchang. We wanted to have this school as a way to ultimately share the gospel with Campongchang. The end goal was always to see people come to know Christ, but we didn't know what that was going to look like. I think looking at the area of education, it was a big felt need within the families and especially even in the province in Campongchang for sure. I remember very vividly that sitting, I think it was another individual's house, and we were talking about plans for the school, and it was very daunting to think about. And praise God, it came to fruition. How many classes have graduated from friendship school at this point? Five or six? I think maybe four. Four? Okay. I think it's great you're following those students on into college and adulthood, and they're coming back and serving into school. So that's awesome. God's answer. They're praying. And they're teaching our groups and stuff like that as well. So that's pretty exciting. Yeah, that's really exciting. So I think that's a significant victory. As you think back on your time in Casey specifically, are there other things that come to mind like really, you know, significant victories or where you just saw really God work in a powerful way? Is there anything that comes to mind there? Well, I think one thing as we were talking about even getting the school started, and when our teammates left, is that like meeting Makara, that was the principal at first. So I feel like that was definitely like kind of a divine meeting with him because he was a believer, but he had just recently come to faith, but he was probably in his 60s, I think. And he was just the right guy for the right moment because he was a believer. Not I wouldn't say he had a strong walking relationship with God, but he wanted to have an impact in some way. And he had a lot of connections in the education system. So he was very helpful with us and getting things set up correctly with the Ministry of Education in Cambodia. So I think there were things like that where God specifically brought the right people at the right time that was helpful. Yeah, it's good. Yeah, because he had access to officials and such that would allow you to go forward with the school that you might otherwise not have been able to. Yeah, I mean, in Cambodia, it's very relationally centered. Right. So even if you have all your eyes dotted, tees crossed and think you're set for getting something accomplished, it's really hard to do. If you don't have people that you can connect with that can help you get that done. So if you had asked the question, if you were to describe, how would you describe success on the missions field? What does success look like? Well, I think it was at perspectives. You know, we took perspectives class before we went to the mission field. We've heard it said over and over again through our missions agency, world team, that we want to work ourselves out of a job, essentially. Our goal is not to go become pastors of a church somewhere, and that's our end goal. Our goal is to kind of disciple people, win people to disciple people and turn things over to them to lead the group, and then we can kind of step back. So it's always to work ourselves out of a job. So I think that's always stuck with me as we've kind of approached this stuff. So you start with the end in mind, right? And you have your goals and you work towards those things and our big goal at the beginning was, all right, what do we need to do to eventually get ourselves out of here? And then, you know, obviously success would be, you know, one of the things that we get excited about now is seeing multi-level discipleship and people that were discipling, discipling others. And those kind of things are just really awesome to see, really exciting because, you know, it's beyond, it's beyond Amy and I. And so you've got Cambodians initiating and discipling other Cambodians, which is super gratifying, edifying. Yeah. That's really, that's great. Yeah. It's just incredible to meet the people that you've worked with and just to see their sincere faith, their zeal for following through on the Great Commission. And making disciples, it's very, very exciting. So the world system, obviously it plays out in a certain way here in the U.S. How did you see it, how do you see it playing out in Cambodia? I think some things are similar. I think we think of the U.S. as having a lot of materialism, right? We see materialism in Cambodia as well. I think it's on a smaller level because they don't have as much, for sure. But I think there's still, and especially with, as I think there's becoming more of a, it wouldn't be middle class here in the U.S., but in Cambodia. And so they have this focus on having that good life too and having certain things and bettering themselves. So I think that can be similar in Cambodia. I think there is a struggle with just oppression and lack of freedom there. Okay. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I always like to say that I think there's obviously cultural differences. But it's interesting because you see a lot of similarities. Like there's, there are cultural differences maybe in the way you get to some of those underlying heart issues. But the underlying heart issues are surprisingly similar. You know, men are men whether they're here in the U.S. or in Cambodia. There's a lot of similarities. Now, obviously animism and, you know, obviously Cambodia is a Buddhist country. So there's a lot of differences there. But I think that's, that was kind of a surprise or an interesting thing to see is just how common men are wherever they are despite their cultural differences. Do you see the same with the women then too, Amy, or more significant differences? Were you using men in a general term? Yeah, in a general term. I'll make. Okay. Sorry about that. Okay. Yeah. I think there's definitely, it's hard to say because I know we have this in the States as well. But there's definitely like a desire to have power and for one person to be in a position of power. So I think that can be a real struggle too in that culture. And then even as we've tried to build this idea of having leaders work together and be like on a team, that there's been struggles there with not having one person in control. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. So I guess somewhat related to that is Cambodia, you're working in an honor, shame type culture. Which, you know, is kind of the world system can play into that. How, how do you see that playing out the whole, you alluded to that with, I think, with the leading and that type of thing. But are there other areas where you see that play out? Yeah. I think, well, it's interesting. I think Cambodia would definitely be partly on our shame and also partly fear power. And we definitely see that play out, especially with what Amy was talking about with the way that people relate in the sense that people need or want power over other people. But yeah, there's that aspect of it there too. I think with the honor, shame, I think there's certain things that we have learned with, like, if you're bringing something difficult up with someone to, that, to confront someone, you know, like in front of other people or too directly would not be the way to do it. Okay. But to kind of, you know, indirectly, it's almost like when Nathan goes to David, you know, and he kind of around, you know, maybe, what if this happened and David's like, oh, okay, yeah, that guy should be killed. Yeah, right. Oh, that man is you. But yeah, I think there's ways of communicating and working through conflict that you can do what's biblical, but in a cultural way that's more, you know, that works better in the culture. Okay. Yeah. So as you think about your kamai, your Cambodian friends and their walks with God, what are some things that we can learn here in the U.S. about their relationship with Christ and how they carry that out? I guess some virtues that you see in their walk with God. I think one thing that comes to mind for me is just their willingness to stand up under persecution from their family and from their community. So in Cambodia, you're free. I mean, they're free to become a Christian and be a believer in Christ. But they suffer a lot of persecution from the family and from friends in the community because they're such a minority. So I think when we went in 2004, maybe it was less than a half a percent Christian in Cambodia. And so now maybe they're like two percent. So they're definitely still in the minority. And so as someone becomes, if they become a believer in Christ, their family is looking at them and saying, you know, thinking you're the odd one out pretty much. And there's different things of persecution that they feel. And as they try to reach out to their family members and share their faith or share their faith in the community, they're often ostracized and just kind of made fun of or persecuted, not maybe in a physical way, but in different ways that are difficult. And so I think just learning from their sacrifice of continuing to persevere, I think they have a real love for their fellow Khmer people, brothers and sisters and people in Cambodia. They want to see them come to believe and understand the Bible, understand God's love for them, and understand about Christ. And they have this passion, right? And a lot of times that gets rejected and it's very difficult. Yeah, I would just add to that that in that animistic side of things too, when people do become believers, there's an actual fear by your family members that this is going to cause calamity and hardship and sickness or the crops don't grow kind of thing. So it's not just some kind of intellectual thing. There's real persecution there or fear that something bad is going to happen to the people around you as a result of not following Buddhism anymore or becoming a Christian. So I think that is a really intense point for a lot of Cambodians. So yeah, that seems like the perseverance, the boldness, the willingness to maybe face being ostracized is a strong character qualities that Khmer have. Yeah, and another thing is that we've talked a little bit about how there's a hierarchy in Cambodia with relationships and people that aren't in the know or aren't experts aren't really supposed to speak out as much. They're supposed to be quiet and listen. And I think one of the things that's been interesting is seeing people that are, you know, obviously they don't know everything, but they're stepping out and doing things that feel uncomfortable for them. And I think, you know, we've talked about a couple guys or one guy that literally got up in front of people and couldn't say anything, you know, and to see him get up again and try again and to actually, you know, do some teaching and stuff like that has been one of, you know, a really awesome thing to see in transformation. Yeah, I'd say another thing too is just we can learn from their minimal lifestyle and living. Yeah. They live on very little and the people that serve with us also choose when they choose to do work within, like a Christian organization or a Christian school, they often choose to give up other opportunities sometimes for higher pay. And so, you know, as I look at their lifestyle, I'm always, you know, just floored by how little, you know, they're often living in, you know, or renting places that are one room for their whole family. And, you know, so I think we can learn that too, that they know how to live on very little, and they give from that little amount as well to what God's doing. Right. I've always been impressed by the joy that they have too, even though, you know, difficult circumstances, maybe, you know, facing, you know, some persecution and yet just super happy and glad to be following Christ. Yeah, that's a great point, dude. Yeah. A little, a little bit of a different question. So, you raised two daughters on in Cambodia. They've oldest transition back here, involved in the college ministry, another one here, and moving into the college ministry. Tell us a little bit about what that was like to raise your family in Kompongcham. Yeah. Well, you know, what we were talking about earlier just feeling like we couldn't really do anything or get anything accomplished just because of the language and the cultural differences kind of carries over to your kids and can make it difficult thinking about your kids and what some of their needs are. So, you as a parent want to provide what your kids need, obviously. And we felt, or at least I felt that it was hard to do some of that stuff. It was hard to think about, you know, health and education in the context that we really didn't have much knowledge of or much ability to get things done. So, I think it was, I think it was difficult from that point of view that we were just, you know, we felt like we were learning, you know, we were a couple of steps ahead in some ways and not really able to come through with some of these areas, I think. Yeah, I think with your kids it becomes difficult because you think, you know, God called me to the mission field or God put this in our path and we followed him here. But you kind of feel like, well, my kids didn't choose that, you know, like, so when we went, Lauren was 15 months and Sydney wasn't born yet. So, they didn't really get, you know, they weren't really at the table discussing the decision to go. So, I think that becomes difficult because as you face different things on the mission field, and I think especially as we moved out to the province in Kampongchang, there weren't many expat kids out there, you know, so they, it was pretty, I think, socially isolating for them or they were socially isolated. And so, I think that was a really difficult thing. And I think the homeschooling thing was intimidating to me. I didn't, I really didn't think that I would ever homeschool my kids and didn't have a plan for that. But as God showed us just the need that was out in the province and how there wasn't much of a witness for Christ there, that that would be a good decision to make and that God would provide as we moved out. We made that decision, but I think, I think each year, you know, especially as they got into high school, we were having discussions with them, we were having discussions between us and thinking about, okay, when is it too hard? And that you're asking them to sacrifice a little bit too much and we should make some sort of change. But I think, you know, I think of this verse in Psalm, I think it's Psalm 16 that says, the Lord is my portion and he's allowed the lines to, the boundary lines to fall on pleasant places. So I think as we made those decisions to make certain sacrifice, I feel like God has given us back. Amazing things. When I think about the, both Lauren and Sidney, I think, you know, I was scared to homeschool, but I think God did something really amazing there within our family, of that we were kind of a close-knit body of Christ when we were there by ourselves. And I just, I have seen their faith grow and I've seen their walks. Like, I really feel like God plays something in them where as they were getting into high school, that they made certain choices to make it easier for us to stay. And then I saw them depending more on the Lord as far as just personally in prayer. And so I think it's driven them to, and they're just personal time with God has strengthened them and they're in their walk with the Lord. Wow, that's great. And then in our relationships with each other, I think it's kind of forged a really special bond as a family as well. So I think, you know, we were worried about all these things, but God provided the right things at the right time. And he's, I just think he's done something really cool there. That's a great, that's a great word. Yeah, yeah. I would just add too, I felt like there were some really cool things. Also, you know, me, I was able to come home and have lunch to hang out with the kids over. I felt like I got a lot more time and had a lot more hangout time with them than I would have otherwise. And also adding on to what you were saying, I think once they reached, once they came back here, I think we really felt blessed that, you know, they came back when they were, before they finished high school. And they were able to live with people here in Columbus and into well, that final senior year. Right. And I, we always tell people too that, you know, it's so awesome that we, you know, it's a big fear. Obviously we're so far away that it's a real blessing that we have the church here to, you know, to house our kids essentially and to train and disciple them, even though we're halfway around the world. So we felt like that was one thing that we didn't really have to, like we weren't worrying all the time about our kids, which was a real blessing and a provision by God that I think freed us up to do, you know, not, not to well or focus on those things from halfway around the world. Yeah. So it was pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was really thankful for the church as well. Like we kind of committed to sending them back to Epic every summer so that they could get that fellowship and get some close ties with the high school Bible studies that were back here. And I remember Lauren coming back one year and just saying how great the teachings were and how excited she was about God. And she was like, I can't believe you guys gave that up. Oh. She was like the fellowship, the teachings, you know. And I was like, yeah, you're right. But I think having that support back here has been incredible for them. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So very profound what it did for them and their relationship with Christ and things that they learned. Are there other things that, you know, by them being there in K.C., from what you can tell, how did it shape their worldview or their perspective? Yeah. I think it just gave, I mean, I think you'd have to ask them specifically. But I think it gave them kind of a special window into God's heart and his love for all people and for what he's doing in the world. I think it's given them, you know, to go back to, you know, the Cambodians living on living minimally. Right. I think it's given them a picture of, you know, how much we have in the States. How many resources we have and what the Cambodians live on. So it's kind of like a picture of how most people operate in the world is pretty different of how we have it here in America, you know. So I think it gave them a perspective to just have a love for what God's doing in different places and different people, you know, different people groups. That's good. A love for different cultures. Right. Yeah. That's good. And Lauren's going on the trip this summer. I know. It's amazing. Lauren's leading the team to Campongcham, so that's very exciting. Yeah. Yeah. She's very excited. I think she's excited to see things from a different perspective as an adult. Yeah. That's right. And being really involved like in the ministry side of things than just being the, you know, the missionary cadence. That's right. Yeah. Okay. A little shift gears here. So the two of you are in the middle of a pretty significant transition. Actually, probably smack dab in the middle of a big transition. How are you processing that as you think about really turning over the whole ministry to the national workers? How are you processing that? Well, I would say that there's a lot of different emotion involved. Obviously, there's a lot of excitement, you know, because like we were talking about our goal is to hand things off to the nationals. So we feel pretty excited that that seems to be the way things are headed and that those guys have taken the reins and have run with them. So yeah, we're super pumped about that. There's still work to do there before we leave so that there's kind of this push and it can be a bit overwhelming at times trying to get all the stuff done that we'd like to get done before we go. And then there's a little bit of anxiousness about how things are going to look after that for us. And you know, we're, if you can't tell, we're on the older side, we're over 50 and coming back. So there's just a lot of stuff there. We feel like God's got a plan, but we we're not 100% sure what things look like. And I guess we're trying to we're trying to get to the point where we're like, okay with that we've seen God provide for us, you know, obviously moving to Cambodia. So it makes sense that he's going to provide to, you know, for us coming back to the States as well. So, you know, we know that sometimes in our in our heads, but you know, we struggle in our hearts about, you know, that's, you know, without being anxious, without worry and stuff like that coming back. So there's a lot of different things going on and all different kinds of thoughts and excitement and anxiousness. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'd just say better, sweet, the right word. There's a lot of things that we look at it and we're just excited, totally excited because as we've seen like our Cambodian leaders run with things and do certain things, we're like, you minister to this culture way better than we could ever, you know. And so it's exciting to see their passion, to see their ideas, to see their heart, you know, for the Lord and for what he's doing among their own people. And so that is just exciting. Now the transition part with us is difficult. I know that there's been times where, you know, those times where different teammates have left and we've felt lonely and we've longed for fellowship in English. But now I know the opposite is going to be true. You know, we've been in the body of Christ with our my brothers and sisters and we've developed deep relationships. We've discipled people. And so now what is that going to look like for us to be away from them? And so like we just talked to them, some of our, a couple of our leaders the other night and it kind of had that feeling of, oh, you guys seem so far away. And when we got off the phone, I was like, this is really sad. This makes me really sad, you know, there was just this longing, you know, to be with them. And so I think that's the, you know, the bitter part of it, I guess, is that I think now either way, you know, we've got fellowship, we've got friends and people we love in the States and of course our daughters are here now. But we have people that we love in our body of Christ and Cambodia. And so now it's going to be, we'll have longing wherever we are, which is a good thing, right? You know, but I think it's going to be, it's going to be difficult for that separation. But then real excitement for like, you know, I'm praying for revival and praying for responsiveness that, you know, our Cambodian workers and leaders will just see like God working even more so after we leave. Like it'll be like, oh, thank goodness, they finally went, you know, now God's really working. So yeah, that, like the bittersweet is a good way to describe it. And it's incredible to see the passion, the vision that the Cambodians have for seeing the Kingdom of God grow there in K.C. And just the love that they have for their people, the love they have for you guys, just, you create discipleship work that you've put in. So, so I'm assuming you'll still be able to maintain the relationships, but it obviously won't be like living there, but to, yeah, continue to have conversations and that what you, I'm assuming you anticipate doing that. Yeah, we'd love to do that. And I think like Amy said, we did walk away the other day being on this side of things and realizing how, how difficult it was just to communicate effectively over, you know, a group of three Cambodians talking through a cell phone and us talking through a cell phone and just the echo and just the craziness, you know, with language and everything. And so you're just like, wow, this is going to be, it's going to be a lot of, it takes a lot of work to keep those relationships that are, you know, up and, you know, that are so far away, you know, and when we, you know, when we left, people said, oh, you should only probably expect to maybe keep up with one or two people back in the States. Just, it's just not realistic to do more than that because, you know, you kind of go and you want to be talking with everybody that was, you know, all your friends back here and it just doesn't work that way. So, we're hoping that we can connect at least with that small group of obvious, the leadership there in a real way, in an, you know, ongoing way. But I think, you know, there are a lot of challenges to that even though it seems so natural. Right. Yeah. We definitely want to be there, you know, as someone that they can consult and lean on when they run into problems or have situations that they want to discuss that we could advise and help. But, yeah, and be advocates for them back in America of what God's doing over there. Yeah. So, you've been overseas for over 20 years. What changes have you seen and dwell since you've been gone? I don't know. You were running things when we left, right? You were running the missions department. Yes, I was. Not the whole church. Sorry, not the whole church. No, just me at that. I haven't done this. I haven't done this. This is department. So, that hasn't changed. I think one thing that first came to mind for me is the college group. So, you know, Chris and I were, when they first kind of tried to pull the college age people back together and have a college group. I'm pretty sure we had like 60 people. Wow. Yeah. So, I think, and I don't remember how many people it was when we left in 2004. But I want to say it was a couple hundred or a few hundred at most. So, I think that just the growth in the college group and then I think the high school group as well has been a big change that we've seen. And two, like just obviously with having our daughters come up through the high school group and then to the college group we've kind of seen how the college leaders or people from the college group work with the high school groups. And I think that's something that's really effective with, you know, the high school students being able to look up to college students that are living out their faith in a real way and kind of be inspired to live for God as well, I think is very effective. So, I think that's been cool to watch from afar. That's great. Yeah. I mean, well, the whole leadership of the churches has changed since we left, so that's a bit different. Obviously, we knew, I think we knew probably all the older leaders from before and we don't know everyone now. So, that's been a big change. I would say, for the most part, I think it's kind of reassuring that a lot of things haven't been changed and that, you know, Duals is still very home group focused and all those good things that we felt like we were trying to start and do in Cambodia are still, you know, alive and well here as well. So, it's encouraging. I think, too, I don't know how much this has changed, but I think it's a groan is just giving people a vision for missions that Dual has done. And so, we've seen that just the impact, obviously, in our work. But I think I've seen it grow, too, with the global partners and the different places that we're impacting across the globe. Just as missionaries, you know, we interact with outside churches and with our mission organization. And as we describe to people, how involved in missions that our church is and just the focus and the passion that our church has for missions and what God is doing around the world, people are impressed. Like, you know, they're just like, wow, that's different, you know, so that's been really encouraging to us that, you know, there's just such a focus on it here. That's great. So again, you're in the middle of this transition and you're going to be heading back to Cambodia in August. And so what does the next year look like as you make this transition? Yeah. So we've decided that as we go back, that we're going to move to an outside city. And sometimes that seems a little weird to people like, why would you, you know, move away from what's going on in Campongchang? But we've decided that it would be good for us to not be to really give them a chance to run with things on their own. It's difficult in the culture for them to look to the foreigner for the answers if we're there. And it's hard for them to understand if we're in Campongchang that we wouldn't be at every Bible study or meeting, you know, and helping them. So we've made the choice to move and live in an outside city and go in and out for meetings with the leadership maybe once a month. And so we'll be continuing to push things forward to make a smooth transition. A lot of it has to do with really like the over, you know, like the running of the ministries together with financial accountability, planning, I'm trying to think of what other goals we have this year. So it will be a gradual step back where you're still in relatively close proximity to help out. And then again, just continuing to give more and more control and authority to the nationals. And so then the plan would be is that you would return around this time next year. Right. Yeah. And I know I'm kind of looking forward to doing ministry back here in Columbus too. I think it tried to, I tell people that it is really difficult to work in another language. And it's I always feel like there's a difficulty there expressing myself or trying to communicate a point about a passage or in a teaching or something like that, that is just obviously like Amy said, that it's just as like a cambodian. And just the amount of energy and effort that we expend to communicate and try to communicate well and teach well and things like that, it's exhausting. So I think for me, there's some kind of there's I'm looking forward to working in English again a little bit. You know what I mean? Some of the things people have gone through here in this culture, having grown up here myself obviously. But I think there's to me, there's some kind of draw there too, not that it's going to be easy obviously, but that just there's some kind of desire there to work in my original language there in English. So I think that's kind of exciting too. Looking forward to engaging with people, seeing when we come back, there's a lot of ministry going on. There's a lot of opportunity here too. And so that's exciting as well. And it doesn't, we don't, at least I don't feel like that there's going to be any kind of drop off or any kind of, you know, we're going to, you know, not have anything to do. Yeah, right. We'll definitely put you to work. Yeah. I think you know, I think we have an easy testimony too when we meet people and we tell them, we've spent the last 20 years in Cambodia, they're like, why, oh let me tell you why. That's a good lead. Yeah. Well, maybe we'll draw it to a close there. And I just want to thank you, Chris and Amy, for taking the time to talk with us and share about your experience in Cambodia and know that there's many people that are praying for you, for the nationals, for this transition and just grateful for your example to us. And thanks to to the audience for listening in and if you want further information, you can contact the missions division at missionsadmin at dwellcc.org, that's missionsadmin at dwellcc.org and we can answer your questions or get a hold of Chris and Amy if you have questions about what they shared today. And if you're interested in continuing to follow this, we encourage you to continue to follow this podcast. You'll get updates with new sessions come out. So just encourage you to do that and thanks again for listening to us today.