Hey, welcome there to another episode of Dwell on These Things podcast by Dwell Community Church. My name is Greg Pilcher. I'm a local home church leader here in our fellowship, and I'm going to give a little introduction to an episode I recorded with a friend of mine, Keegan Hale, back in May of 2022. Part of my assignment here today is to consider some thoughts that Keegan or I or both have had since we recorded. He ended up passing away a little over a month ago as of recording this introduction. So I think about what him and I learned during this time. One thing that came up was not putting too many chips into our hopes and dreams of this life, if that makes sense. Just watching his body really fail him and deteriorate over time. And this sounds kind of harsh, but this is something he said himself, just how it became like a miserable husk by the end. And we both couldn't wait till it was gone, you know? And it makes me think a lot about 2 Corinthians chapter 5, which I've been reflecting on, especially the last couple of weeks since his memorial. So Paul's talking there about how our current bodies are like tents. And if you've been tent camping before, it's kind of novel and fun at first, but you don't want to live in a tent. After a few days, you're like, oh man, a great shower would be really welcomed at this point. And going to the bathroom in the woods is not amazing. But anyways, we have our bodies now, and I'm in my 30s. It's not like my body is completely wasted away for the most part. But I get little whispers of it failing here and there. Or when I do my infusions for my multiple sclerosis, which gets mentioned in the episode coming up, I get very painfully reminded of where I'm going. Because I see other patients who are a lot older, and it's pretty disconcerting. And even if I hadn't been diagnosed with MS, we're all going there anyways. That's going to happen to everybody's body, whether it's over a long period of time or abruptly or whatever. But this is a nice and dark start. But Paul talks about how in 2 Corinthians 5, how our bodies are like these tents, and they can be kind of, they're fine at first, but they're going to fail us. But what's nice is that he mentions in 2 Corinthians 5, verse 5, now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. And we know that eventually, after our bodies fail us, we will get new bodies from the Lord, and they're going to be perfect, amazing bodies, way better than anything we've ever had here on earth. And I found that really comforting in a different way. You hear that verse when you're a teenager, when you're in your 20s, whatever, and it doesn't have the same teeth that it does now when you're starting to get whispers of your own body failing or when you see it bury in your face like we did with Keegan. And I am really excited that this life is not all that we have. This is actually going to be the worst part of our existence. The next life, when we're with the Lord personally and with all the people that we love that have passed before us, it's going to be so much better than this. And I really like how it mentions that the spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. You think about when you do like a good faith bond, when you're buying a house, you put like a grand or two down and like, hey, I'm serious about buying this house. Like this is my intention. This is what's going to happen. And the same way, I think God does that when he gives us glimpses through his spirit of amazing things in this life. When you read a verse or two that maybe you've saw several times before, but it strikes you in a way that is really unique or you feel like God's almost making eye contact with you. It feels so directed at you in a way that is really exhilarating. Or those times when you're hanging out with your friends and there's just this closeness or this fulfillment that you feel that is just so deeply satisfying. He had lots of those moments. I had some good moments like that with his family this last weekend. We actually all went away and it was great. And I think those are a little deposits from the Lord. Like it's almost like a wink from him where he's like, hey, I'm serious that the next life is going to be so much better than this one. Here's like a little glimpse of how good it will be. And I really appreciate that. I'm glad that there's passages like 2 Corinthians 5 that I've basically ignored my whole life, you know, but now that I'm getting, approaching middle age, if you will, and that I've seen situations like what happened with Keegan makes me really grateful in a new way for what's going to happen in the future and how we are going to have new bodies and be in heaven with the Lord. It's much more exciting and it feels much closer to home in a good way. Yeah. As we remember Keegan, one thing that came up in the podcast that we recorded a few years ago was John 6, 68. So this in the context, Jesus just gave a teaching that a lot of people were not fans of. A lot of people walked away from him at that point. And then he kind of turns to the 12 disciples and he's like, what about you guys? Do you want to leave as well? And Peter responds, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And I think that really defined Keegan's life where he had some really uh, exceptionally trying suffering, but he wasn't going to go do anything else. He knew that God has the words of eternal life and there is no life even close to as good as one following him. Even if you are going through extreme suffering, which some people will listen to this might not be at the moment, but I'm sure some, a lot of people are. Um, and just, you know, that point of what else are we going to go do? We're going to go do some life that, uh, won't really account for a whole lot when we get to heaven. Or are we going to do some life where we aren't invested in people and have all these meaningful relationships? Keegan was staring death in the face for several years and, uh, it only amplified his commitment to wanting to follow God with his whole life and wanting to be constantly invested in people. And I was obviously with him to the end and he did not regret that decision in the least. Okay. Well, without further ado, here's the podcast that Keegan and I recorded back in May of 2022. Thanks for listening. I've invited two friends today, Keegan Hale and Greg Pilcher to read and discuss a Bible passage together. Not unlike the thousands of one-on-one study times that are taking place in Dwell Community Church every week. Today, we're going to look specifically at a teaching of Jesus on the topic of sacrificial service, a concept at the heart of our podcast topic this year. How can the church relevantly serve in today's world? Guys, thanks for joining. You guys are long-term friends, is that right? Acquaintances. We ran into each other a couple of times. We were forced to be within each other's... Yeah, yeah. It's really our parents' decision because we... You moved next door to me 20 years ago, like exactly, I think. Yeah, we've been friends for over 20 years. And in that time, the majority of it, we've hung out every week, at least once a week, but have at many points had a lot more time than that too. Hmm. It's cool. Who's been the more... Like the carrier of the relationship, the more mature? Man, those slim piggins. What's a... Is an option neither? What's a more mature? I think a lot of people, they sat in on any of our Hangouts to be like, do they talk about anything important? I don't understand, how do they just talk about nothing that whole time? Are they even Christians? Well, I know you both are known as sacrificial servants and dwell, or at least that's your reputation. Would you guys affirm or deny those allegations? Allegations? Yeah, I'd certainly say that Greg is very active, sacrificial servant and fellowship. And I try to pull my weight when I can. We've led together in high school home churches. Hmm. For several years. So we've had different tours of duties and different kind of venues. Serving students and lead in and shepherding disciples and students. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, certainly a fair allegation of Keegan, I guess. Yeah, he's... I've seen him dedicate hundreds of hours to other people on a regular basis. And regarding your other allegation, I know you're going to bring up here in a second. Does Keegan have a face for radio? I'd say, yeah. I feel pretty confident about that. I feel like podcast is as good as I'm going to get, so I'll take it. That's how I got into it. Well, it's because your nose goes off at that weird 45 degree angle. What happened there? Um, somehow, someway, someone headbutted me in my face. Yeah. With a... You must have instigated, I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. I was dancing, having fun. And then suddenly I was headbutt by... That's really inconsiderate. Yeah. Yeah. That's not cool. Whoever did that. Greg has a long track record of harming others. And he's broken many bones on many people, numerous. I'm not the first, and I probably won't be the last. That's sacrificial. Yeah. Yeah. He's a servant, sacrificing his looks. And he did not have a lot to spare, so it's just... That's a real testament to his character. I think God's plan is for some reconciliation today. We didn't know it, but... Why don't I... I'll pray for us first, and then I'll read a passage, and we can discuss it. So God, I do, I pray you would speak to us. Give us understanding of your Bible today, God. I thank you that your word is living and active. Amen. So I thought we could look at John 12, 20 through 26. It says, now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the festival. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. Sir, they said, we would like to see Jesus. Philip went to tell Andrew. Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus. Jesus replied, the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me. And where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. All right. So a pretty blockbuster passage. I thought first, I wondered if you guys noticed anything about the context in this passage that sheds light on what we're doing. Great. How are we doing today, Paul? Yeah. We're keeping it simple today. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's the time of the Passover, which was a celebration where the nation of Israel would remember God's provision throughout time. And you would have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions flooding into Jerusalem to celebrate. Among them, Jesus has just made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. And it's a great juxtaposition that he answers, and many had assumed that he'd be King Messiah. And then he immediately talks about suffering, being a sacrificial servant. And so he really kind of sets the stage for an awesome kind of juxtaposition. Yeah. I think earlier in the chapter two, that's where Mary, she pours that perfume out on Jesus, and it's kind of like her dowry or life inheritance or whatever. It's a really huge sacrifice on her part. To prepare for his burial. Yeah. Yeah. I like that word, juxtaposition, as he entered on a donkey's colt, this little animal, in comparison to a great king that would enter on a war horse, his city. Here's Jesus, humble to the point of almost laughable, entering with opposite expectations. I think that's ultimate here. And as he goes on, later in verse 32, he predicts his death. He's given his, maybe we'd call this his acceptance speech as king, and uses this analogy at the beginning about the grain of wheat that falls into the ground. What do you guys think his main point is here in this passage? Greg is not that much of a farmer or gardener, so... Well, you went to West Ville North, doesn't that? Does that mean I'm a farmer if I go to North Ville? Rural. Only hillbillies come out of West Ville North, as they say. Oh, my principal doesn't hear that. We are Westerbillies. Thank you very much. 2022, you can be a little more sensitive. If I had to go live a hundred years ago and provide for myself from the land, I'd be dead in two days' time. Max. Max. But the main point, I think in short that he is going to die and raise as a sacrifice to others so that his action might bear fruit. The analogy of the seed falling to the earth and dying and bringing forth life, that's what he is preparing to do for humanity. And it's really a picture of true greatness. A lot of people wonder what makes someone great, what makes them meaningful, effective, influential? And Jesus says the true model of greatness is not power, authority, kingship, but rather servanthood and sacrificing for others. Yeah, I like that picture too, where it's like the original seed dies, but it can lead to countless other seeds and this flourishing crop of wheat kind of thing. His death can then lead to this great flourishing, but it necessitated his death to allow that to happen. When I see in it too, he's calling, he's saying that his servants will be where he is, a greater call too and a teaching here to all of us that here is the path. Like you were saying, Keegan, the path to true greatness is the one who's willing to follow him into a life of giving their all that they have for others. And then in that sacrifice, God can do great, amazing things. Not bad. Is that what you think I'd say? Sounds sweet. We need like a ding, ding, ding. Yeah, but that's a tall order. That's an awful lot to ask. And as you're bringing up, he's not asking us to do something he didn't do himself. Praise God. So just looking closer at the passage, we should look at the why. Why does Jesus say this is the way we ought to live our lives? You mentioned a couple there that it leads to greatness. Anything else you guys see in this passage? I mean, it's not like, oh, you could keep your life and you get to have that. It just won't be as good as if you lose your life. He's saying, if you try and keep your life, you're going to lose it. So it's not like two options and one's kind of better than the other. One is like a really bad option and the other one is tough, but it's like kind of infinitely better. You know what I mean? To hold on to your life is to try to hold on to something you're not going to be able to. Yeah. Yeah. I think the picture he paints is an overall better, more appealing, more satisfying life. I mean, you find satisfaction. What the Bible says oftentimes, bear fruit, which means that could be bearing fruit in your life of growth, but it also could be that you're helping others. You're bearing fruit through them. And finally, he says that God will lift that person up who chooses this lifestyle. They'll be glorified. God will celebrate them. He'll find ways to support them and that they won't be forgotten. I think that's the fear of living this kind of lifestyle that if I don't look out for me, who will? But God gives a clear statement that I will lift you up. That's my role and I can in ways that you never could. Yeah. As he says later on, those who are last will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, those who are slaves to all that promise of God's acknowledgement of this and living for him. I thought part of the reason why I asked you to join me today and to discuss this is not only your record as servants in the church, but I think this why continue to live this way is significant in both of your lives because of some situations, some medical conditions you guys have been suffering with. My understanding is you both suffer from incurable degenerative diseases, at least incurable at this point. Would you guys care to explain? Well, Keegan suffers from- No, don't do that. General stupidity, but there's never been a cure for that. Nose, nose, bent nose syndrome? Yeah, bent nose syndrome. There are other non-PGE-13 things that we could talk about, but- Yeah, those are PGE-14, certainly. We'll just put a disclaimer on this. No, I mean, Greg and I, we both have neurological diseases, which, I mean, we still haven't cracked the code on what happened there. We've been best friends for quite some time. We were next door to one another. We spent probably every day together for a large portion of those eight years of living next door, so we're still wondering, was there something in the water? Like, what caused this? But I have what's called ALS, or Lou Gehrig's disease, and that causes deterioration of my motor neurons, which allow me to control my muscles and move, things like breathing. It's an, like you said, incurable disease, and people typically, the survival is two to five years after diagnosis. So I'm a year and a half in on diagnosis, about two and a half from symptom onset. Still trucking, still here. You still have to hear my voice for a little bit, but that's what's going on. Yeah, it's a sum. Yeah, and then I was diagnosed with MS, which is multiple sclerosis, what, like three and a half years ago or something? It's a real similar time period. Yeah. Yeah, it was like a couple years apart or something. But yeah, MS is certainly not as serious as ALS. The general idea is that your body, your immune system kind of like pokes tiny little holes in your spinal cord and sometimes your brain. So I got holes in my brain. Explains a lot. Yeah, that's what, yeah, there you go. Give you an alley-oop, congrats. But anyways, it's basically like, you know, I had an original flare-up and most of my body kind of went numb. It was like real crazy. But I got some really good treatment really quickly and it all went away. My life is pretty, it's basically normal. Have a smaller battery, I'd say, these days. I can't do quite as much as I used to, but I don't know. I kind of forget I have it most of the time. Awesome. Yeah, so it's, yeah. So similar but different. I know one of the similarities is, or at least my understanding is that studies have shown that both of your diseases are exacerbated by stress, that stress can cause a flare-ups and onset of higher deterioration. I think about, it just made me think about Jesus's call here to live sacrificially. A lot of us have chosen to enter into a life of higher stress, a life of giving away to other people, but without that added immediate danger of this may cause what I have to flare-up and get worse in a way that's irreparable. And so it makes me wonder, for you guys, why haven't you decided with that factor to take a big step back from serving? I think if you looked into it, studies would show that stress is bad for everything. I don't mean to sound so pithy, but- If you try to save your life, you'll lose it. Sort of like Greg was saying anyway. Yeah, yeah. I've heard that somewhere. But no, I mean, I think Jesus was spot on. To me, it's naive in some ways to think that we'll be able to avoid stress in life. I understand the desire, and I understand that we have to rest. We should be taking care of ourselves. But life is stressful. And ALS, MS, losing your job, parenting, marriage, whatever it might be, school, that all is going to incur stress. And I think there's no way to avoid it in life. And so the compass should not be, how do I avoid this stress or that stress? It should be what's most important, what is true, and what really matters. And I think that's people. I think that's serving. I think that's ministry. I'm more convinced of that than ever at this point in my life. And so I'm not sure quite how noble it is, what we're doing, but we're trying to stay rational as much as possible. Yeah, I totally agree. I'm like, what lifestyle am I going to lead that isn't stressful? Even if I wasn't doing that much with my life, I'd be stressed out about the fact that I'm wasting it. I've come back lots of times to a passage earlier in John, chapter 6, where Jesus gives a teaching, a bunch of disciples bail, and they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And he turns to the 12 and is like, what about you guys? Are you going to leave too? Peter's just like, well, to whom else should we go? You have the words of eternal life, and I've thought about that in my life. I'm like, what else am I supposed to do? It's not like I feel trapped in following God. It's just like, there's nothing even close to as good as this. Why would I do something else? I think sometimes about when we used to ride our bikes in our neighborhood. It was awesome when you learned how to ride your bike, and you could sometimes go maybe to an adjacent neighborhood or parks without your parents. It's incredible. And then you get your license to drive a car. And you're like, you want to trade your car in for this souped-up bike? You'd be like, no. I'm never going back to that life. You know what I mean? Something better. Yeah, you could go back to the bike, but that'd be ridiculous. That life would not be nearly as awesome. So it sounds like it's hardly even a temptation, the choice here to revert back to something, a position that's safer. But I bet, my guess is that you've had family and friends come to you and be like, why don't you take it a little easier? I've had some of that. I mean, I need that at times. Like, I'll push too hard. But I think people have wondered why I keep devoting time to this or that. And I think there is temptation to comfort, to just not wanting to do things that are true and right, like serving people. But I think, like Greg, no matter how strong the pull of comfort, of desiring to appease others or to follow their crowd, in the end, what's true is true. And where else would we go? Christ alone holds the words of eternal life. And so, yeah, I mean, I certainly have daily, weekly struggles where I'm engaging with this. But in the end, you kind of come back to the same answer. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I've gone back to that well a few times where, like, I'll sort of take a week off or something, and I just kind of am a lot more selfish that week or don't spend that much time with people. And I always hate it. It's just, like, it's really unfulfilling. I just feel kind of, you know, bummed out about my week. Like, I just didn't really do anything. Like, when I die someday, like, that week just won't be on the highlight reel. You know what I mean? Like, what was the point of that? So it's just really very unsatisfying. You've both tried this life out that Christ offers and have come to see that the alternative is not even appealing. That's what it sounds like. You've pushed forward, obeying Christ here, knowing your sickness and within your sickness. Do you guys feel like you've personally experienced that, his promise there that the one who hates his life will gain it? Yeah, and I've also experienced the opposite. The more I love this life, the more I realize that it's fleeting and things are not my control. They're not quite as good as I thought it would be. It's like that Netflix binge that you think will really hit the spot, and then you just feel drained and kind of sad and whatever it might be. So I think there are things to love in this life, but to love this life itself really doesn't make sense. And I feel like I have a unique vantage point to realize that whether you get two to five years or 80 years, whatever you might get, in the end, we all end up the same. We're going to find death, and that just elevates the value of people so much. Investing in them. For me, I'm glad that I had done that before ALS, and I have great friends. I lean so much on Greg. Great acquaintances like Greg. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's amazing what an acquaintance will do. But when I think about what do I want to do with my time, it's invest in people close to me, spend time with my family, do God's work. I've loved and cherished the opportunity to take time to study the Bible and get to give Bible teachings in different contexts. I recently had to step back from that. I just can't do it with where my speech is at at this point. And I think I consider that one of the great honors of my life to ever get to do that. And at this point... You're doing it today. Yeah, yeah. And it's great. All right, one last hurrah. I hope. Hopefully not. But I think I've not had anything more enjoyable, more satisfying, and more convincing of value and worth than seeking God, seeking and serving others, and investing. I mean, the friendships that I have with people that I talk to about their lives, about how they are between them and God. Those are things that I wouldn't trade in for anything. The relationships. Yeah. And the people. Yeah. And the ability to love them and impact them. And that seemed to be what was driving Jesus here. He thought about the great fruit that would come from that seed and the choice he was about to make. And it gave him motivation and joy. And it's really cool. I think we have to be honest, too. There is some self-seeking. People are just so much fun. Greg and I, one of the things that we always talk about is, yeah, you could say doing ministry is difficult. It's stressful. It's hard. It takes time. But it is so much fun getting to hang out. No one gets to laugh more than people who are invested at that kind of level. And, I mean, we are so dumb, too. We do the dumbest things. I don't know about that. You don't know about the we part? Okay. Greg is... It's just me. You ever wonder how many hours, grand total? That's something we should ask God, that we have spent throwing objects at other objects. That's probably our favorite activity. Thousands. He used to be like, oh, dude, check this out. I'm about to hit this tree with a rock. And we're just like, it's just so fun. We recently have spent time, since I'm not as physically active and capable, we've been generating a list of videos on YouTube, dumb videos that we can watch when I'm not able to really get around. And it's things like that, where it's like, friendship is really where it's at. And it's not just this serious duty, but it's rich. It's fun. Yeah, there's nothing more valuable than investing. What kind of videos does Keegan like? I mean, they're just, they're so dumb. It's always like- That I like or that we like? That's what you like. Uh-uh. Do you want to rephrase that question? Want me to edit that? Yeah. You big fans at home, you can watch the Skittles rabbit commercial from like 14 years ago. Is that one of your classics, Keegan? Yeah, that's all the hits. That'd be on the greatest album. Yeah, there you go. People are going to think we're really weird if they actually go watch that. Easily pleased. Yeah, easily entertained for sure. Greg, what about you? Do you feel like, it sounds similar. I mean, you were saying similar stuff, just about how lame it is to throw, waste time. But anything else you wanted to add to that question about how you've experienced this life from giving up your life? You know, one thing that I feel like I've noticed upon reflection recently is just how having really quality peers has been a way that God has really enriched my life and sort of shown me his presence, I think. Obviously, that would include Keegan and my wife, but I got a couple other guys that are great dudes. I remember one of them, shortly after I was diagnosed, he was like, he's like, hey man, I hope this doesn't come off as flippant or whatever. But I feel like you're not the worst person for this to happen to, because I think God can really use you and that kind of thing. And just the way it came off, if that was a stranger, I'd be like, who are you? I mean, I'd be so insulted. But I know that he really knows what it means to sacrifice regularly and to put all your chips into like, you know, relationships and stuff. And I feel like having peers where I don't have to explain to them a lot of parts of my life, because I know they understand it, because they're living the same life. I feel like that's so vital to have around. So even, do you think what he was suggesting was like a purpose, even in the suffering for you specifically? Yeah, that kind of idea and just that like, you know, this is just like one thing that's happened to me, but it's like, you know, God's so much bigger than that in this life. We can choose the lead of like sacrifice. It's just way too awesome to let some small thing like that get in the way of. Yeah. So your guy's perspective here is real cool. And I was thinking, you know, a lot of probably the main argument leveled against God is that he allows suffering. And what's crazy about his call here on his people is he's calling them to even something worse than that. He's calling them to enter into more suffering. And, you know, a lot of people that talk about, that debate the goodness of God, I'm not sure they all have experienced like what you guys are going through. And I wonder what your guy's perspective is on the goodness of God and all of this of what you're going through. And this call he's making on us to give even more of our, give our whole lives to people. I mean, we kind of mentioned something about that, like at the beginning where it's not like God is asking us to do anything he didn't already do himself. We know for a fact that he understands what it means to sacrifice and suffer way more than I'm ever going to. I'd much rather have MS, which I feel like really isn't that bad most of the time, than tie on a cross or something or dedicate my entire life to sacrificing for other people. So I feel like I still keep a lot of parts of my life to myself. So it's just great knowing that I know for a fact that God is not asking me to do anything that he hasn't already done, a tenfold kind of thing. I think suffering is no joke, and it's in no short supply here on this earth. We are far from the only people who are suffering. Yeah. But, you know, I think when we go through suffering, it does really bring up this question in a new way. And I've found that myself. I found myself questioning things that I had never questioned before about the afterlife, what was worth living for. And the more that I sat, thought, read on that, the more I became convinced that this is what we should be doing. And I think during that time, that process of really wrestling with that, God was already at work showing his goodness. That was something that I couldn't deny at all, even in the midst of questioning God, because we had so many friends help us out. They give us meal trains. They helped us go on vacation to get away and relax. They supported us in countless ways. At this point, I have people helping me out with all kinds of functional things. And I think the reality is that ALS has allowed me to see God's goodness in new ways that I hadn't seen before. That even when things are out of my control and they feel like they're at the absolute worst, that God is still sending in different things to remind me that he's there, he's close, and I've no doubt that he wants to do that for all people. He's coming alongside you in this. In a big part, it sounds like through those who you've loved. Some you haven't. But that have taken up this same call to give their life up for others and to extend that to you and your family. When there are times where I felt sad that I feel like I'm not suffering well, I'm not handling all this well, and then nonetheless, God is still there sending people in, sending me help, giving me insights. He's always present, no matter how I feel, no matter how my health is. And that makes me all the more eager to see him face to face. Praise God. That chance. Praise God. You know, when he says, where I am, my servant will be too, and I think there's something implied there. Could be, or I see more specifically later in Philippians 3, this idea of nearness to God that we receive through suffering that we can't get otherwise. Sounds like what you're describing too, Keegan. I think so. I mean, I do a lot of battle of feeling, like I said, that I'm not doing it right, but God has certainly come very near. It's awesome. It's good stuff. You know, I wanted to end, like we should, with more study in the Word, thinking about application. But I feel like a lot of it you guys have mentioned as we've talked this this dedication of our lives to love other people, to wade into the needs of other people and serve and to spend our time and all of our resources doing that as faithfully as we can. I wondered if you two felt like God is specifically calling you towards this in your current situation, towards this call of giving your life away sacrificially. You mean, like, in what ways is He doing that? Greg, you just started summer break, so that's... Greg's a schoolteacher. That's true. Today's the first day of summer. Very sweet. So let me think. What are specific daily applications to... And maybe what do you feel like God's calling you to specifically? I mean, I feel like I've been really spurred on by some of my friends. It's not like my friends lack suffering either. I feel like they've been really cool examples for me, like seeing Keegan's attitudes with a lot of things and new insights, I feel like has been very encouraging for me and more... I feel more persuaded in God's goodness, seeing like his life. And I'm like, I guess like, maybe I could be that to someone else and like, maybe a lesser degree or whatever. But just like, it's... I've been kind of reminded that like my attitudes about suffering or sacrificing or whatever, they obviously impact my life, but they may also like, be impactful for other people, like who could be like potentially watching or are close by. So it's a lot bigger. Those decisions are a lot bigger than just like me. You know, I need to like, kind of consider how they could positively impact other people. Good. As an example. Yeah. I think you guys are doing that. Thanks. I guess I don't know if I feel that way also. But it's nice for you to say. I, you know, just thinking about what Greg said, what a cool thing that God has probably placed people in our lives to give us a model of dedication, of joy in others, of persevering. And, you know, I don't think either of us would have any of the perspective that we do without the benefit of people who have believed in us and modeled this kind of stuff. Oh, yeah. I do think that's a really cool vision that we might be able to do that for others. And for anyone out there, whether you're going through suffering like this or not, you know, you could be a role model, a kind of a piece of a vision for someone else's life. I think that's just awesome. And what significant purpose in that. I'm grateful I feel that. I mean, I feel inspired towards that by you guys. I would. I went on practical stuff for me. I think that God's made it really clear that He wants me to serve in the ways that I can. And I've found lots of joy in serving in really kind of public settings from teaching to discipling, telling others about Christ and even my job to some extent. But I know that at some point with this disease, those things won't really be at my disposal. And so I think God's been working me over to show me, yeah, maybe you won't be able to do this or that, but I'm going to grow you into more of a man of prayer and you'll be able to do that. And I think it's easy for a lot of us to sit and think everything that we can't do. But I think God's been aligning my sights on what I can do and even in the future, what I'll be able to do and how He's not going to stop growing me. He's not going to stop wanting to use me. But it might look a little different. And I think being willing to take up the helm, wherever that might be. And I think that's been awesome. I think being grateful is something that He's calling me to, to not sit there and be sad that I can't play with my daughter in the ways that I want to. But I'm still, I have enough strength to hold her on my lap and I can talk to her. Maybe I can't throw her around and be the crazy dad that I want to be, but I have so much there for God bless. Great perspective that these aren't merely limitations, but they're opportunities to, like you said, take the helm in a new way. And if all you could do is to pray for other people, what a great work it would be to labor in prayer for others. He's trying to get me there, little by little. It's good, man. Very cool. Paul, you look a little seamy. Need some windshield wipers on those glasses. You guys are heating me up with this Bible. These Bible insights, dude. This is sweet. You want to do this next week? This is sweet. But yeah, I think, yeah, real cool discussion, guys. I'm really grateful for you both sharing openly about your struggles, but also just your respectable perspective and attitude about sacrificial service, this call to give our lives in a way that just gives us so much life. And very encouraging. Just grateful, too, for that God's given you that perspective. I'm grateful for God's given us this opportunity to live a full life, a rich life. Grateful, too, for everybody listening in. If maybe you have a thought about this passage and you wanted to share it, if so, email us at podcast at dwellcc.org. And if you feel moved, maybe this to get more involved and to find ways for you to serve and maybe get involved in one of our numerous ministries at Dwell Community Church. You can check out a list of dozens of opportunities to serve around the city at dwellcc.org backslash ministries. And if you like this podcast, you can subscribe. Until then, press on.