Hey, welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast from Dwell Community Church. My name is David. I'm the podcast administrator here at Dwell Community Church. We're back with Jim Leffel, our global partnership co-director, again, 35 years of full-time work here at Dwell. Jim's here to talk about the Ivory Coast and the global partner that we have there. Jim, you said earlier you visited 20 to 25 times to the Ivory Coast. Yeah, well, twice a year for over 10 years, 11 years. 11 years is how long we've been partners with them. I visited before we were partners, but yeah. And so this is one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about the Ivory Coast is because not only are they a long-term partner with us, but this is a thriving ministry. I mean, just looking at some of the numbers we have with this global partner, I mean, we're looking at tens of thousands of people who are connected with some of the people that we're working with. And so we wanted to talk about some of the ways that God is moving and the small way that He's used us to benefit the things that they're doing over there. So thanks, Jim, for coming on. Yep, sounds good, David. The way that we come into contact with our global partners, I mean, we're consistently praying as a church that God would put us in connection with the right people, and this one was really a provision from God. I'm curious if you wanted to go into the story of how we met some of the people we're working with over there. Yeah. All of our partners come to us in different ways, and the way that MPI, our partner in West Africa, came to us was through civil war, essentially, from 2011 to 2014, which decimated a very traditional small network of churches, numbering about 800 people in 25 churches. And after that civil war came to an end, and these churches had largely disbanded, and the leadership was wondering, what do we do, where do we go? The leader of this network, a guy named Victor Seery, received an invitation to come to a conference here in central Ohio that addressed the African church. And so he and several others from different African countries came, and the conference, as it turns out, was a bit of a bust, and so they were looking for something to do and ended up contacting Central Ohio Youth for Christ. Because that was a known to them. Sure. And then Victor left and didn't hear from him, and then he showed up literally unannounced at the office in January of 2014. Youth for Christ or Dwell? Dwell. Okay. And looking for me, and I guess Brian had given him my name. And so I said, okay, if you're prepared to come to Columbus unannounced... Must care. I'll sit down with you. And so we just cleaned off the table and met for about a week in the day and in the evening and talked through where he had been, what his churches were like, what they were looking for, what we were about. Here's what we do. We talked about house church planting and how that can work in his environment. And he left with an idea rather than an offer for money. When he came and visited to Columbus the second time, you said that at this point, their fellowship was maybe 800 people. Yeah, at the most, right. So what were the problems that he was facing at that time when he first came to us? Well, the groups had largely collapsed. There was a lot of very sectarian violence occurring in Ivory Coast at that time. It was largely directed toward Christians. And so there was a fear of Christians even getting together in a public way after that. So they had decimated their groups, there was the infrastructure to fund them had gone away, and they were really lost. So when we began to talk about organic approaches to ministry, raising up leaders in their homes, to open their doors to their neighbors, their extended family, things like that, that became a thing. It was in his mind. And so he went back to Ivory Coast and met with his team, and they decided, well, we don't have a plan B, let's try this and see what happens. And so from a distance, we monitored their progress for a year. What year is this? This is 2015. And then it became evident that they were beginning to see fruit from this approach. And so we went and did a pretty deep dive into their structure, their organization, their ministry. We toured pretty widely around the country and decided that here would be an opportunity to provisionally enter into a partnership that would enable them to get on their feet and to mobilize some people for church planting. So at this point in 2015, Dwell is not financially involved yet at all. It's just home church strategy, Victor going back trying to implement some of that stuff. That's right. And so now we're 10 years down the road. Right. Some of this home church strategy stuff that's first biblical more than anything is starting to become more and more successful over there. Victor goes back in 2015 with, again, not money, but some of these ideas. And it seems like some of this stuff started to take off. Yeah. So he had to talk his leadership team into doing something non-traditional, which was out of their ballpark. It was not something they were familiar with. What were they doing before this? Very traditional Sunday morning churches. But because they were largely disseminated across the country, there was no real way for them to work together. They couldn't share resources. It was just not working for them. And so in this way, they decided, well, okay, let's try this biblical, organic approach to doing ministry. And they began to realize that a lot of their people who remained in their network knew people, and they were empowered to be a witness and to bring people together for prayer, essentially, and also a little bit of Bible study. And through that, they began to have the early signs of growth and receptivity. And so that was positive. What was a problem for them was how to mobilize that into something broader and deeper. And so we talked about the difference between being a church that grows in more or less an isolated way and being a movement. And this is something that they saw, and we saw as well, the conditions were coming into focus where that could actually happen. And so that was really the impetus behind the partnership, is to see a movement of house churches both throughout Ivory Coast as a country and also throughout the region, which is Francophone, it's French-speaking. And so there is natural connection linguistically and also tribally in that region. So it made sense to begin to think in much, much bigger terms. Other than maybe some of the lack of language barriers, what were other factors that you guys were seeing that made you feel really good about some of the potential for growth in this area? Yeah, great question. One of the things is that their organization was plural from the top down. The national leadership was a team of people that worked together that had terms of service that were voted upon by the body of believers, which we felt really attracted to. It was not a one-man show, which is unusual in Africa, which tends to have a kind of a great man idea here that we have a primary leader and everyone just kind of follows suit. There, the charismatic leader was really not, he was not the president of the organization, that was separate from him. And I think that that was very wise. They were accountable in that way. They had very good reputation in the communities where they were operating, which was an important part of it as well. And I think more than anything, they had the humility to learn and to think about things from a different perspective, from a biblical perspective, and that's not typical. I mean, it seems like as you guys are vetting global partners or as a church, as we think about who we're gonna partner with, you're considering both the field to which they're going out, but also the workers in the harvest field, their character, the way that they respond to scripture, which is equally, if not more important is what it sounds like. Yeah. I mean, that's really, really critical. Their ability, their willingness to submit themselves to the clear reading of scripture over the African religious tradition, which is very structured, very man-centered, very Sunday morning centered. And they were able to say, okay, we need to really rethink that from the standpoint of what does the Bible teach. So that's interesting because what you're describing here is this fellowship of around 800 people at the time transitioned from Sunday Christianity is what you're describing to a home church movement. And so it seems like the leaders bought into that pretty early. How did they convince or persuade this big body of people to change a lot of the ways they thought about church? Yeah, it's a good question. The 800 people are broken down to 25 churches in four different towns in Iriqos. And so what we did is we went and spent a week, like all day, doing a conference that I wrote up years ago called Simple Church. And it's basically a biblical analysis of what the church is, what body life looks like, the purpose of the church, and how, in a practical way through house churches, we can mobilize hundreds of people into evangelism, into discipleship, into decentralized below-the-radar screen fellowship. And so we went at that. We had all of their leaders there and just had lots of question and answers. We went through this material in some depth. And then I left, and those leaders went to the zones, the four towns that they were meeting in, and just offered persuasive testimony to the reality of what they were learning and challenged groups to reorganize in this way. And they lost some groups in the process. Some people saying, yeah, it's just not... We're gonna go with what we are comfortable with, what we know, and that's okay. Yeah. Because you really want to start with people who are saying, I think I understand, I'm definitely interested in giving this a shot. That makes sense. It's probably a sign that they're preaching the right stuff, that some people are not gonna respond and wanna stay at that low commitment level. No doubt about that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine. At that point, you feel like you're rolling out some new stuff and you start losing people. It can feel a little scary, but it sounds like they were willing to stick to their guns. And it's a sign of good leadership that when they all decided to buy into a vision, the people that were following them decided to follow. That's right. And they were prepared to lose people, and that's a sign of integrity, to be sure. That's cool. And so at this point, there was 800 people, 25 home churches. We're now up to most recent numbers from this fall, 20,781 members across 3,530 home churches. And so this has ballooned into something a lot bigger because of some of the factors that you're talking about. A lot of French-speaking people, a lot of spiritual need, and also some strong leadership willing to stick to biblical values. Yeah, that's right. And so Victor came over to Columbus in 2015, went back. Obviously, he's working on a board of leaders, board of members in this fellowship, who are going out and distributing some of this content to a bunch of the different regions. From your visits to the Ivory Coast, have there been other leaders that you've gotten to interact with that have really stuck out to you? Yeah, the whole team, the senior leadership of MPI is impressive along two lines. One is that they are lifelong friends. They've known each other since young adulthood. And so they've grown up together. They trust each other. And that's rare to be able now in their mid-40s, most of them, some of them into their 50s, and a couple around 60, to be able to stay together through that, to have respectful dialogue, disagreement, tension, suffering, and to be able to stay together through that is a sign of real stability, of maturity, and the kind of people that you want to get behind because you know that if they are on board together, then they're going to reinforce each other's commitment. And that was attractive to us and has really, in the 10 years that we've been partnering with them, has really proven to be quite fruitful. The president currently is a man named Wilson. And Wilson is one of the hardest working men I've ever met in my life. He spends an awful lot of his life on a motorcycle traveling around the country and encouraging leaders, putting on training seminars, and also organizing teams. And this is maybe the most important thing that's going on now is organizing indigenous teams, tribal teams to go out to several countries that surround Ivory Coast so that it is a regional, not national movement at this point. And Wilson has really been a lot of the drive behind that. I'm kind of curious, what are the things that you feel like Victor really emphasizes in his preaching that is so magnetic to the people around him? I'm not sure if you've picked up on any of that in listening to him. There's a couple of things. Victor understands the supremacy of Christ. And that's important because in a religious spiritual climate like Africa, there are no atheists. Everyone has something spiritual going on. It's a very spiritually dynamic environment and a conflicted one as well, which we can talk about in a little while. But in America, we talk about the gospel as John 3, 16, God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life. That's right. And they believe that too. But where it's felt in the hearts of people is more like 1 John 4, 4, greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. The world is alive in spirits in Africa. Everything is spiritual. Spirits animate everything. Ancestors continue to have their influence. But there is the supremacy of Christ above all of those things. And this is what Victor has emphasized here, that we don't live in fear. We don't manipulate spirits. We take our stand with the sovereign Lord and submit ourselves to His leadership and His will, His purpose for our lives. And if we can get alongside that, then He will be able to be used powerfully by Him. And I think that is really a foundational belief and conviction that He has taught and which everyone deeply embraces there. That's sweet. Is He leading His own home church at this point or is He playing a little more administrative role? They all have home churches. And every single leader, they have 157 church planters now. Every single one of them have emerged through the home church ministry and are able to, from their own experience, then begin to plant groups like that. You said there's 157 church planters. Is that different than what they would describe as a home church leader? Yes, a church planter is somebody who is vocationally mobilized to plant churches. So these are full-time guys who are going to new villages, new places, and they are winning people and villages to Christ. They're establishing house churches, then networks of house churches, and that's how that works. Obviously, this is probably different for all 157 of them, but can you describe a day in the life of one of these church planters, what that's going to look like? Well, a lot of it has to do with just going to a village. Maybe you have a relative that lives in that village. Maybe you know somebody from that village, and so there's an invitation which is required. You can't just go to a village in West Africa unannounced. Because? Because it's not your property, it's the property of the chief. Okay. And he has substantial say in terms of everything that happens there. So like when we've been there, and we've been there many times in the interior, when we go to a village, the first place we stop is the meeting center where the chief presides, and we ask his permission to enter the village and explain who we are and what we're about. And often, we explain what our message is and call upon the chief to respond in faith to the message of Christ. Which I imagine has a pretty big impact on the rest of the village. It's a pretty important conversation. Yeah. So in African tribal life, village life, where the chief goes, more or less the people follow. And so yeah, it's really a strategically vital place to begin so that the chief knows exactly who you are, what you're up to. He may be indifferent to your message, but will open the doors of the village to you. So church planters will go in and they'll meet with people. They'll share the message of Christ. And over time, because it does take time, people begin to respond. And once a household responds, then there's a foothold in that village. And they begin to invite extended family, neighbors, things like that. And it becomes a thing. And so a group will start, the church planter will lead the group for a period of time and work with somebody, usually the host, and the techniques of discovery, Bible study, and things like that to learn how to communicate through the word of God, how to ask questions that get to the meaning of the text, to lead in prayer and in evangelism. And so that's the process. And so a church planter is gonna be doing that on multiple sites throughout the week. Man. Best case scenario, a church planter goes into a village and they're not only going to share the gospel, lead people to Christ, but also stay long enough for them to be equipped, self-sustaining. Best case scenario, how fast are they in and then out of a village doing that process? Oh, so they will have a supervisory role in that village for years. So they're not just planning a group and going. It becomes a network. And that's important because then, so for a lot of these church planters, they will establish a network of village house churches, several hundred people, and then just decide, this is my ministry now as I stay here. And so quite a number of them have gone in that direction. And so they will go off of the church planter category and into more of a pastoral role where they're equipping and overseeing this network of house churches as they grow. But it's still a vocational position for them. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 And so the village house churches then will take upon themselves the burden of supporting somebody in that role. We talk about this global partner in the Ivory Coast, but what you're saying is this is far more than just the Ivory Coast. I'm curious, are there other countries that have had particularly successful fruit in trying to reach some of these villages? Right. Yeah. Just as a bit of a backdrop, Francophone or French-speaking West Africa goes from Cameroon in the South all the way up through Sierra Leone and Senegal. So it's a dozen countries, it's hundreds of millions of people, but they have that common language. But in addition to common language, they also are tribal, and tribal is really super important. And what has happened is that through a lot of economic and political upheaval in the region, people have gone through tribal lines into Ivory Coast because it has been a bit more prosperous and a little bit more stable than neighboring countries that are just experiencing civil wars and coups and things like that. So what has happened then is that people from a wide range of tribal identities have coalesced in the major cities in Ivory Coast where our partners are working. Three years ago, we went to Togo to meet with our partners' leadership off-site and just to think strategically. And we prayed and discussed and literally rolled out a tribal map and said, okay, let's figure out where the unreached tribal peoples are in West Africa. And so that has actually been extremely fruitful. And thousands of people have come to Christ and many hundred home churches have been established in less than three years through that process. And that is really kind of the future of this thing is that we really want to see that kind of across tribal lines, mobilizing people to return to their countries and establish works. And so that some of that's more mature than others. Three years ago, a group, almost three years ago now, started in Benin, which is the birthplace of voodoo. It's the national religion. It's the most spiritually dark place you'll ever be. And they began just through a family funeral to proclaim the message of Christ. People began to respond. And now there are 1400 people meeting in house churches in central Benin and all the way down to the coast. In the face of death threats of significant opposition, because they are cutting right into the heart of the spiritual fabric of that dark place. And so we were there doing some training just two years ago, and it was quite amazing to meet these people who have turned from voodoo and turned from a really a dark place to discover Christ and are building a real community. Wilson and Victor are not only reaching people in Ivory Coast, they're using their resources to reach people outside of the Ivory Coast as well. And a lot of these people are animistic tribal people. And Muslim too. Okay. You mentioned that people are really attracted to Victor's teaching on the supremacy of Christ. I'm wondering if you've seen trends in certain aspects of the gospel that really sink home with a lot of these people they're trying to reach. Yeah, I think there are a couple themes there that continue on. One is that traditional African religion is a religion of fear. They have a belief in a high God that created all things. And then for different reasons, depending on the mythology, have abandoned the creation and have given it over essentially to lesser spirits, spirits that animate nature. So the life and death cycle, objects like the soil and the ground, rain, things like this are deified. But as we all know, nature is not partial to anyone. It's not friendly. It's harsh. It takes. And so in animism over the centuries, because this is a very old, you see elements of animism in the Old Testament. So the idea is that you placate the gods on whom your life depends by offering sacrifice. And is it ever enough? It's hard to say. When things are bad, then the sacrifices become increasingly valuable, including animals and even children at points is a known reality even today. So the gospel is significant in that when you approach an animist and have an opportunity to speak, because I have several times, to be able to say, I know the truth about the Most High God that you know exists, but wonder where he's gone. And I'm here to tell you that the Most High God has not abandoned his creation. He's actually entered his creation through the person of a man named Jesus. And that man came not to demand sacrifice, but really to offer himself as a sacrifice so that through his death, our guilt can be atoned and that we can therefore enter into a relationship with the Most High God through the freedom produced by his son. And people are astounded by that message. They've never heard that before. They may be vaguely familiar with Catholicism, but really just kind of devolved into the worship of saints that are much like the worship of the idols that they already were worshiping. So to hear about the incarnation of Christ and his death on our behalf is new and it's radical, and it really hits that sense of need that I live in a spiritual milieu that I cannot control, that I am subject to, that it will ultimately take everything that I have, and to understand that God is quite the opposite, that he has invested in creation, that he has given everything he has for us is just... It is astonishing. It's not surprising. It shouldn't be surprising that when that message clicks, people are very quick to wanna tell the people around them. That's right. That's definitely true. There's a lot of spontaneous church planting and evangelism that occurs because people are just talking about what they've learned. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a lot of animistic people, a lot of tribal people, but there's also been a kind of a different history in regards of how this area has been reached in the past. And so I'm curious, how does the landscape post-colonialism really change the way that you guys or Victor and Wilson are trying to approach reaching people? Okay. If you think about Ivory Coast in three strata, the coastal strata, which is really the hotbed of colonial France, which brought Catholicism with them. And so there is a lot of superficial Catholicism. It's not like they changed their animistic beliefs, but they adopted the outward trappings of Catholicism. And these people are referred to as Christo-Pagan. Inwardly, they're animists. Outwardly, they're Roman Catholic. Then in the center section is much more just animist. They're not that influenced by colonial culture or by Catholicism. They're very much tied to their ancient tribal beliefs and traditions. And then in the north, the third strata is largely Muslim. And so these three strata really do represent the religious framework of the entire region. That's why Ivory Coast is so strategic, because there are mature populations that represent all of the aspects of belief in West Africa. And so when you win people from those zones, those areas, those strata, there is a very natural connection in other parts of West Africa through them. When you're talking about Muslim populations in the north, is that similar to some of the Christo-Pagan stuff you're talking about in the south, where it's still pretty animistic, but maybe has... Okay. Yeah, that's well said. So it's referred to as Folk Islam. And so the idea is that inwardly, they do remain pretty much animistic, but just like the Catholics in the south, they are outwardly Muslim. And the truth that people are hearing that brings people to Christ is not going to change, but I would imagine the strategy to continue to follow up with different people, how are some of the strategies of follow-up going to be different for these three different stratas? Okay. That's a hard question to answer succinctly, but let me just say this, that our partners don't do a lot of trying to talk to you about your Islam or about your Catholicism, because you don't understand it yourself. So why do that? Instead, they just go right at what does the gospel teach? What do we learn about Jesus? And let's talk about that. And as questions emerge, yeah, we'll talk about them. But there's little reason to create a separation between you as a Christian communicator and the person you're talking to based upon a religion that they barely even understand. So... Where did majority of the leadership for this global partner come from? Most of them are from the interior. Most of them have just kind of basic animistic backgrounds. Well, it seems like God is doing something significant, especially over the last 10 years. How have you guys seen satanic opposition start to come into play? I mean, obviously there's, you mentioned civil wars and other things, but I'm curious if current events over the past 10 years have made some of this work even more difficult. Yes, the social, political, and economic environment has complicated the picture a great deal. There are enormously powerful and well-funded Muslim militias that are coming from Northern Africa, Libya, places like that. They're coming down through the Sahara into the Sahel and into this region. And they are very radical. They are al-Shabaab, they are al-Qaeda, they're ISIS, and they are intent on imposing Muslim rule. And they've done a pretty good job of leveraging pretty weak, moderately Muslim governments in Mali, in Niger, in Burkina Faso, in Guinea, and in other places, and now in Northern Nigeria, Northern Benin. And these are becoming war zones at this point. And so it's very difficult to move, it's very difficult even to communicate sometimes with people who are church planting in that area, because the danger of communication is such that they just cannot risk disclosing information on any platform really at all, because it can be intercepted easily by these militias. And so that is a barrier, it's a problem, it continues to be a source of great concern because of the instability and the opposition that people receive. And yet at the same time, oddly, there are pockets, for instance, in Guinea, which is a 90-some percent Muslim country, where our partners have sent a team that are ethnically from Guinea back as believers in Christ. They're winning significant numbers, I think over 450 was the last number I saw, which in a year or so is a tremendous success level in a Muslim country. But it's because they're more moderate. They're the folk Islam that I was describing a minute ago. And they don't like radical Islam, they see them as terrorists, they see them as a threat, which they are. And they've even gotten a little bit of help from a man who's become a believer in Christ in the government who's offered some protection for them. So there we see just that God is at work in ways that we can't predict, but nonetheless is pretty striking. So that's going on, that's an issue there. In terms of just basically satanic attacks, we see that especially in Benin, which has just given over as a state religion to voodoo and all of the darkness that that represents. But what we're finding is that as followers in Jesus just continue to live their life and love their neighbor and share their hope, that the antagonism, at least in certain kinds of villages, has abated a bit. And now they're working in Cotonou, the coastal capital where most of the commerce takes place, which is also a very dark place, but it's large. And for that reason, it's easier to kind of get a foothold in populations because in an urban context, people are less connected, they are less reinforced by their village communities. And so they're seeing significant development in that context as well. And I think that those are people who will go from Cotonou and along the coast back into their villages in the interior, they'll take Christ with them. But prayer is the thing that keeps people sane and keeps the work going because they know just how profoundly dependent they are on the work of God, the supremacy of Christ, or their spiritual environment. What does the prayer life look like for some of these leaders? It's pervasive, it's every day and it's significant periods of time, personal prayer, petitionary prayer. They're working hard knowing that it's the Lord who's gonna open the doors, it's the Lord who's gonna give them voice to speak, it's the Lord who's gonna protect them as they go from village to village. And here we talk about it and I think that we know that that's true, but we also know that we can travel wherever we want and say whatever we want with very little fear of reprisal or whatever. It's just not there for them. And so the reality of prayer and the centrality of prayer and the efficacy of prayer is really at the forefront. On the topic of prayer, are there things that as a fellowship we could be praying for, whether it's something recent, they just had their election. I'm not sure all the implications of that or what even to pray for over here in the States. Well, I was talking to Victor two days, is it Thursday? So I talked to him Tuesday and here were his prayer priorities. One is that peace would remain in the land. So the election has come and gone. A candidate who constitutionally was not allowed to run, ran and won because he put his opposition in exile, in jail, things like that. They fully expected that there would be just widespread violence and there was some, but it ended quickly and they're thankful for that. But it is always the kind of thing where we just need to continue praying for peace. Whereas a few months ago they couldn't travel freely around the interior, now they are. And that's a prayer point to continue. The second thing is that they have focused dramatically in the last 18 months on the next generation, the next generation of leaders, the next generation of church planters, the next generation of the church. And so they are trying to mobilize that army of young people. They're starting house churches in schools. They're starting house churches in places of work, in communities, in neighborhoods, in houses, in villages. And we really want to pray that their work is protected, that they are effective and that the supervision, which is so important with younger people especially, would be able to discern the issues that they're facing, how to coach them through. So that in a couple of years when we're back in front of these microphones again talking, we can say, those 4,200 people, here's the fruit that they've borne. So that's a massively important focus there. And then a third thing is that here is a partnership that has really taken on ownership of the idea of sustainable ministry, which means not becoming increasingly dependent upon us as they grow. Because we really essentially are providing for them about the same amount of cash today as we did eight years ago, even though they've grown from 800 to 22,000. It's awesome. To be able to, in an impoverished environment, learn how to gracefully call on people to sacrifice for the sake of the work is something that they are succeeding in. And that they need to continue in that success. This is one of the benefits of decentralization of a single leader is these guys realize we've got to do something to teach and prep and train the next generation of teachers. We're not going to be able to do it forever. I'm not going to be able to do it forever. Right. We do an exercise fairly often there with their leaders. Say, what's it going to be like without Victor and without Wilson and where banks no longer accept deposits from the United States? Because you know what? Those things are going to happen. So what does it look like for you to continue to thrive under those constraints? And so you get some pretty interesting conversation going around that and some creativity about what does it look like for us to be a truly independent and sustainable and growing operation? What do some of those conclusions look like? Well, one of the things is that there is the feeling that we're too poor. Most people feel like it because they are poor. But they have grown to think that, well, because we're poor, we don't have resources. And the reality is that they do. And so one of the things that they have done is they've gone to their network of house churches and said, okay, you know, each household here can bring out a dollar a month for the work of church planting. Sure. Okay. That's a dollar, which for us would be maybe a few hundred dollars. Right. You know, but for them, it's a buck. Yeah. Can you do that? Yes, I think we can. Okay. So let's think about that. If each household is putting in a dollar, and there are 22,000 people in our network from, of course, a smaller number of households, but nonetheless a significant number, that ends up being many tens of thousands of dollars over the year. Absolutely. And so they don't realize that. They know what they don't have. They know that they struggle. But now they're learning to realize, too, what they do have. And so that empowers them to have a stake and an ownership in the future of their ministry. That's cool. Yeah. So that's the kind of thing that we're talking about. Yeah. You mentioned the emphasis on the supremacy of Christ, and you mentioned their devotion to prayer. I'm curious if there's other things visiting 20 to 25 times you've picked up as just, these are things that are huge takeaways from this group of people. They're courageous. Yeah. And they are willing to put themselves at risk. And they work together as families and as teams in a way that I find super inspiring, really. They are willing to go into villages that they know have hostility to them based upon their tribe, based upon what they believe. And yet they do it. They go in. Victor, for instance, has gone into many villages over the years and was met with people with stones in hand and just forcing him out. And he tells the story of early on in his ministry of being cast out of a village with stones. His wife and one of their children who had been born at that time in the jungle just kind of waiting for him, and that he would go back in the next day and the same thing would happen, and the next day, and the same thing would happen. And at a certain point, people were like, you're not going away, are you? And he's like, no, I have a message. And so they're like, okay, let's hear your message. And he would proclaim the gospel and people, some, wanted to hear more. And he was able then to establish a church in a village. And that pattern would repeat over and over again. That's how he won the team that is now the real leadership of that network. So that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's a persistence, it's a willingness to be rejected, but to stay in the conversation, to stay in the fight, to realize that if we are tougher than our opposition, we'll get their ear. And I will think sometimes, maybe in America, we flee a little bit too quickly. We worry about offending more than we do understanding. We talked about some of the prayer requests that they have, big picture, who they're reaching, where they're going, anything that we can be praying for, for Victor and Wilson and their families? Pray for their health. Okay. How old are they? Victor is 60. Speaker 2 Okay. Speaker 1 Wilson is about 50. Yeah. Okay. 50. And so they are at an age where a lot of things go wrong with their bodies. One of their close leaders, a man named Rashard, who's a wonderful man of God, died just a couple of years ago because he just think he couldn't be treated for what he had. People are, every year a church planter is dying of something or somebody in their family, a wife is dying. And so praying for their health is really crucial. And every time I go, I bring about a year's supply of vitamins for those guys. And I think that helps some, but we're also working on a project, which is going to take shape over the next year of bringing some public health and medical resources into this partnership and to others as well, specifically for the benefit of the church planters to keep them healthy, to keep them in the fight. So we've got nurse practitioners here at Dwell and some public health expertise as well. And we want to mobilize those resources to help these men and their families to be able to stay healthy enough to be in the fight and to do what God has called them to do. So what you're talking about is putting together some sort of medical clinic, but not necessarily for the church members, but for the church leaders to make sure that they can keep doing what God has called them. Speaker 2 Okay. Speaker 1 So yes and yes. So yeah, the focus on the leadership and their health needs is the highest priority. But also there is a lot of transferable knowledge that we can reproduce public health programs in the indigenous church. And we definitely intend to do that. So there are things that are not expensive that just need to be taught and modeled and made available in terms of how to have potable water, mosquito netting in malaria season, just vaccines, things like that, that are accessible and can be done and that will preserve life. And that strategy fits along every other thing it sounds like we've been able to do with this global partnership is we're not just giving them the resources, we're equipping so that they can do God's work. That's right. Yeah. Our partnership at this point really focuses on training of the high end of their leadership. And so knowing how to do strategic planning as an organization is really important. How to think regionally and not just locally, how to develop approaches to ministry that is transferable into this 12 nation constellation of West African countries has been really important. And secondly, training that is focused on the expository teaching of the Bible. And we spend a week in a Bible book and just leave 50, 60 pages of notes on it. That is something that we want to see them run with that. They're not ready to. They'll take the material that we teach in a week and they will disseminate that all over the country. The participants in the seminar will go and they'll teach in their zones. They'll train other leaders and stuff like that, which is really kind of awesome. But for this thing to really be sustainable in the long term, they're going to have to have their own people doing that kind of work, and they're not there yet. And so my prayer is that God will raise up a small number of people who are gifted in this area and who are going to be able to go and continue to take this important ministry out. Because West Africa, it is a war over truth. And there is just in the air every manner of bizarre teaching and idea that you can imagine, and they're not equipped to go to the Word and draw from it the theology and the text, and then in an appropriate way communicate that. They are still, after 10 years, they're still learning that technique, that notion of standing under the authority of Scripture. So we wanna be able to finish that job. And so just praying for that would be a very high priority from where I sit. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we're pleased with their love of the Word of God, their understanding of grace, their ability to articulate that effectively, and their growing skill in the Word. But we haven't crossed the finish line on that yet. Yeah, for sure. So that's a big deal. And secondly, just from where I sit too, seeing these regional churches thrive is gonna be the real marker of whether this is a movement. We see movement in Ivory Coast, unquestionably. They are succeeding in Benin, and they are succeeding in Guinea, and they are beginning to succeed in Liberia, which is awesome. But there is a much larger area, and tribal peoples like the Fulani and others that are just not reached. And so just the Lord would open up an opportunity to establish a network of churches from those ethnicities. Well, I mean, just to wrap up, we're talking about, yeah, I mean, you said it, the largest hands-on global partner that we have. And so it's a real privilege to get to work with these guys. It was not a coincidence that we came across them 10 years ago. I'm just curious, what are some things working with Victor and Wilson you feel like maybe different than some of our other global partners make it particularly unique? We have fought some battles together. With each other? Yeah. Just trying to find our way across cultures, across languages. It's not easy. It's sloppy. There's misunderstanding. But there's a deep affection that we share, a love, a bond that's pretty concrete, and a commitment, a common vision that we have that is felt, I know, in their organization at every level. And there's just something, it's kind of like going home in a way to go to visit, to spend time there. And while I have similar affection for other partners, definitely people like Lou in Ethiopia, who I've known for many, many years now, there's something just a little different with the Ivory Coast guys, because we have seen them transform an organization, transform a way of doing ministry and doing life. And just feel like they are a gift to us as a fellowship, and I feel like my life's different because of that relationship. That's cool. What are some of the things you guys have had to work through? Doctrine, for sure. Not just what the doctrine is, but how you get to it from the word. We've had a lot of discussions about the value, the importance of raising up women in leadership, which they are for, but massively underdeveloped in. We have talked about cultural issues that relate to the Ivorian church that are extremely narrow and exclusive and keep barriers up from reaching significant populations, which has not been easy to press through. The whole notion that we're not just saved by grace, but we live by grace is something that is completely new to the Western West African church. And so talking through how do we view the failures of our brothers and what does restoration look like, things like that have been challenging. At points. And so, yeah, I mean, those are some of the things. I think it's a sign that we have a legitimate global partnership with them. I think the disagreements show that both sides really care about this and really want to see people come to Christ. So be probably more problematic if there were no conflicts. Yeah, because then you don't really know. The disagreements are there, but not on the surface. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 Yeah. So, well, cool. I mean, Jim, thank you for coming on and talking about this. This is a global partnership that needs to be updated and people need to be aware of because it is such a bright spot, not only in DeWalt Community Church, but globally. I mean, you're talking about a large amount of countries, a large landmass in Africa that is being reached. And a lot of it has to do with this leadership team that has decided to throw all in to spend their lives for something greater. Yeah. So I was curious if you had anything else in terms of things you've been grateful for working with these guys. I'm grateful for some of the external sources of encouragement we've gotten over the years. One of the really leading global experts in house church planning is a guy named Bill Smith. He's a friend of ours and has been to Ivory Coast and has done some work vetting the organization and seeing what they're doing and has been extremely positive about the significant and unique nature of what's happening there. So I think that his input has been helpful and other people as well who study our work. We write summaries. We're in conversation with other people in the mission world. We're not just in our own heads here at DeWalt. We're really trying to get other people to assess what we do and stuff like that. And so that has been tremendously encouraging and helpful as we kind of chart our way through. That's cool. Jim, thanks for coming on. If you're interested in hearing more about the Ivory Coast as a global partner, but also the rest of our global partners, you can always visit DeWaltCC.org slash missions. And for more podcasts like this, you can always visit DeWaltCC.org. Thanks, Jim. Thank you, David.