Yeah, the Gospel Coalition did an article recently about Jen Hatmaker's book Awake, which is a memoir where she writes about basically her quote-unquote deconversion and her like falling out of Christianity and belief in God and the end of the book concludes with this quote. It's just so good She says the one who never quit is me the one who will never lie to me is me the one who will always love Me as me the one who will always protect me as me and the one who will always choose me is me I thought that that was such a great like yes, this is what our culture is promoting is Especially for women you are at the center. You are the agent of your life It is you and I think yeah making that transition from me to Christ is very difficult Mm-hmm. And yet the numbers actually don't support that. This is working right like rights Welcome to dwell on these things a podcast by dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio Where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at dwell and around the world Welcome to dwell on these things a podcast from dwell Community Church My name is Abbey Merker I work for dwell Community Church where a couple different hats work for the counseling department to teach some classes and occasional podcast host on this episode We wanted to sort of have a bigger discussion on women and the church And women in our church in dwell in particular There have been let's say murmurings That Maybe women are less interested in spiritual things these days like the modern woman Or maybe that women are less interested in a high commitment to spiritual things And so that's what we sort of wanted to discuss on this episode What are some of the trends or even just alleged trends? Regarding women and Christianity women in the church women in this church So we're going to chat a bit about dwell in particular with our guests here today and and sort of cultural trends Bigger picture as well And then how do we respond to this? What do we sort of do about this? We are a church and we we do affirm. Let me just be upfront about that We do affirm that the church is good for women Obviously This is an important topic 50% of the global population correct me if I'm wrong is women So yeah trends that sort of if if there are trends that are affecting 50% of the population Yeah, we should talk about that. We should have a discussion about it. So we're joined this morning by Kira Williamson and Calissa Deacon These women have been faithfully serving In dwell for I don't know over a decade leading home churches You guys are both still leading in college home churches, correct? Yeah. Yeah And they are women so it makes sense for them to be here I'm close. Uh, like you said, I am a woman so You know, here we are It's important I've done some research we had like a big women's event last year with our sphere which is like our group of home churches and The focus was on talking about is Jesus still relevant for modern women? Mm-hmm Because it can be discouraging if you're hearing all this stuff about like well women aren't really interested anymore. Mm-hmm So then it then it's like well, what are we supposed to do? So I did a lot of research for that which was really cool and I felt like I learned a lot from that And then my background is in clinical counseling. So that is helpful just for kind of Thinking through like the value that our culture has on mental health and how does that pertain to women being one to? following Christ so I'm Kira. I have none of those No, I mean I obviously lead a college Bible study and I feel like The past five or six years. We've just had a slew of women come through that Hear the gospel and hear about Christ and accept Christ and are excited and then all of a sudden at some point are like not Interested in this anymore. So it's actually been a very difficult period of five or six years and pretty devastating You know watching women that you love you care about you invest in kind of decide this God thing isn't for me I don't really want to follow God So I feel like this question. I've been pondering For years and you know really pleading with God, you know, yeah, why is it that women aren't interested in? Following you what is happening here? And then it's actually been the past Probably like five or six months. We have all these women coming out to our home church Like out of nowhere that are accepting Christ and wanting to follow God and wanting to come to every meeting we ever have Loving it. Mm-hmm. So It's been pretty great. I don't I guess we'll get into that later. I think that is but yeah, great. Cool. So that's my I have Impressions from experience. Yeah, and it seems like You can correct me if I'm wrong, but it my understanding is this this conversation I Don't know this it maybe is more of a conversation in in student ministries again You guys are in college ministry and and I'm not I've been up in an adult home church for almost eight years now This isn't necessarily a conversation that like we're having up in the adult ranks and maybe it's because We're just trying to win anybody. So it's like I don't know that people aren't necessarily like clocking like oh There's there's a real different like trend between men and women and spiritual interests or something like that So this is kind of a this this was a surprise Topic like oh, I didn't realize like, you know, people have noticed different trends, especially in student ministries So so I'm yeah I'm just super curious to hear what you guys have to say and what you're noticing and stuff like that because I don't know that I've noticed this stuff When I have a I have a vague Thought about that too that Because I mean we are in student ministry, but we're also moms with kids and reach out to our peers So I have women that I'm reaching out to and sharing the gospel with that are our age or older And I think what I've noticed is I think when women become moms There is a definite shift towards wanting community that I think they start to see wait like I don't have a village I need a village. I want that and I think that's actually incredibly fruitful, I guess yeah, so That's kind of my subjective impression on there, okay, cool. Okay, so bigger picture What what do you guys noticing? Like what are the things that have sort of been on your radar regarding this conversation? I don't know recently in the last Doesn't matter what the timeline is. But yeah, what do you guys sort of noticing about women's spiritual interest? Well, I think one of the things which we're kind of alluding to earlier was like some of the research that's coming out about like People like men being more interested or like likely to participate in a Kind of a formal church. Mm-hmm I'd have to look at all my all the research There's some like Barna like Barna has some stuff Pew Research has some stuff Springtide Research Institute American Bible Society like they had all these things coming out in the past really like since 2019 all the way up to last year like all this research on different topics about like young people and their perception of the church and The question is like why what is it about women? But they feel like they can't see themselves participating in like a formal organized church So that was some of this I think some of the questions that in like I guess my circles of conversation people are talking about that like what What about formal and I say formal like we're not that formal, you know I know but like this ends up like I'm you know I belong to this community and I am Setting aside my time to go to this community and this community is a priority to me Like why are women? less likely to join in on them and I think some of it has to do with like the this Real push for women in our culture that's I think cool and like very actually encouraging for women to be empowered and strong independent and autonomous and They feel like okay. I can't have I can't pursue these values that I have Mm-hmm inside of like a formal church. They don't feel like maybe represented. Mm-hmm interesting. So is it sort of like on The one hand. Yeah, maybe some of the the things that women value they feel like well those things are not are incongruous with Christianity or church attendance, but also that maybe there is a Heightened interest for men in our culture, so it makes the disparity even more I don't know obvious like pronounced or something. Yeah Yeah, I don't know. I don't even feel like I can really speak to like them the men side of things I'm like, I don't know. I don't know about them But there is like a Like okay, here's an example I am When I was thinking about this like so if women are not seeing themselves inside not feeling like they could come to a church community What community are they pursuing uh-huh and Have you guys heard of call her daddy? Yeah, okay. Have you mm-hmm? Yes. Okay, Alex Cooper, right? Yeah, so I this is what I really started looking at this because Alex Cooper is out here winning women Like yeah straight up laughing right daddy gang, right? So I was like who is winning women in our culture Alex Cooper. She is winning women I mean every like she is the most listened to podcast by women. At least she was last summer and So I was just like what is she doing? Why are women feeling like she is someone that they can follow and why is why is Christ not that person for them? or why is the Christian Church not that for them and It's super interesting to look at her not her old content like her recent content where she's just like Recent as in the past couple years she started with this whole it's a long story She the direction of her podcast chain. She's like talking about women's issues women's rights Representation with women like all these things are important to women. So they're hearing these topics that they're really interested in Actually, like a couple weeks ago. She interviewed Michelle Obama. Oh, yeah I just listened to it the other day so I could feel like I was speaking with you know, some sort of relevance on it, but Super interesting. She's having like deep conversations deep for like the time I guess sure sure and They're about like being vulnerable having female relationships that are not competitive and How is there space for like many like multiple women to seek? Basically, like empowerment and all this stuff. I feel like I'm totally digressing. I don't even remember what the question was, but She is she is reaching women Yeah, what are you noticing in culture? Yeah, and so maybe she's filling this void where it's like she's connecting with women and she's connecting women. Yes to each other Yeah, like the fact that they have a community like that. It's really interesting It shows that women are pursuing community that they are pursuing Transparency, they're pursuing like honesty vulnerability I think our job is to show them like Christ embodies all the values that they have. Yeah, and The church doesn't have to be this kind of like old Traditional like women are you know put down or something but actually The the way that Christ views women elevates women. Uh-huh, and is empowering. Yeah, right Good. Okay. Good thoughts Kira what are you noticing? Yeah, I think similar. I mean Yeah, I think there's huge value on career in particular and I think many women feel like that's maybe opposed to Being committed to community or being committed to Christian community at this really funny conversation with a girl in my home church last week where She was kind of talking about like I don't want to marry no scrub You know, I got to get a I got to get a man that is high power You know makes a lot of money so that when we have kids I know that they're gonna be taken care of and I was like Oh, like do you want to be a stay-at-home mom? And she was like, no, I mean like no offense. I'm a stay-at-home mom She's like no offense. But like I'm going places with my life. Like I'm not lazy So I gave her crap about it later I was like dude I mean, I think that was a very indicative. Hmm. I've just heard desire to Do something with her life and I think career was the thing she wants to be a doctor So she's like this is what I'm pursuing. This is what I've been pursuing and I am not going to give this up This is kind of connected even to my identity that I am a driven person. I pursue these things. I'm going to be a doctor That's like a part of who I am And so I thought that was actually a very interesting conversation and I feel like I've had several conversations like that with women just that Yeah, that career is the thing that they're going for it. That's their number one pursuit and everything else is kind of secondary to that. Mm-hmm Which is yeah, I mean we spent a long time talking through like Ephesians 2 10 about Your God's masterpiece. He's created you a new in Christ and he has good works in store for you so like you were saying like God can't actually satisfy a lot of those things that you want or The values that women have like you actually can't have purpose. You can't have drive. You can't accomplish a lot for God So, yeah I think you're right on that that we have our job is to show women that this is actually something that God cares about and Can be fulfilled through following him. Do you think that there maybe is like an implicit assumption like I Don't know yeah that if you get serious about following God Yeah, you have to like give up your career. I don't know. You've got to be a stay-at-home mom you've got to give up your dreams and Become a trad wife or you know what I mean? Like is this like sort of the narrative like low-key like yeah I mean, I definitely think in some ways and I think that's Part of the social media image of church is definitely that But I think more damaging than that is I don't think Anyone is telling these women what they can actually do for God. Yeah, and I think that's the thing So it's like okay cool I come and I plop myself down in a chair and I listen to a Bible teaching and then that's it so I think there's no like positive vision for What these women can actually accomplish for God I think is actually the larger issue there hmm Yeah, I agree I was also wondering like Maybe it's and I guess I don't know. This is just speculation. I think that Yeah view of like the trad wife. Mm-hmm. Trad wife equals like a Christian woman. Mm-hmm is Definitely something that people are turned off by they don't mean I don't want to be boxed in But I also think like another dynamic is there are things about community that are Intimidating like it's intimidating to be known and I think there's like a value that people are having even though people want community There's like a really high value for autonomy and like I can live my life without like leaving my house Mm-hmm, like I could you know work from home get my stuff delivered to my house. Like I don't have to Even like there's kind of maybe like a value to that kind of yeah, isolation or autonomy that makes people feel comfortable or And we almost like forget The need that we have for connection with people. Mm-hmm. So I think sometimes Community is intimidating for that reason too. People don't want to Be like in the mess of Relationships like relationships are super fulfilling, but they're also messy and that's a lot of work and you can't have one without the other like you can't have deep meaningful relationships without the mess of like forgiveness and hurting people's feelings and all these things like So I think that's like another facet. Mm-hmm, too. That's Difficult for people right it's interesting, you know, is it like is this just like These are just trends in our cult, you know the the convenience of sort of living in The technological age that we live in where it's like, right? I I I literally don't have to leave my house You know what? I mean? I can stream anything. I'm interested in I can order food to my door my groceries to my door. I can get on social media and have this sort of illusion of connecting and And then also sort of coming out, you know living in this sort of like I don't know post kovat era where it was like a lot of those connections were severed, you know for like 18 months Where it was like, oh, it's really inconvenient to like connect with people. And so you build these yeah these isolated alienated patterns and it's like you I Don't know. It's like the frog being slowly boiled, right? Like you don't even totally realize like oh, this is like damaging you This is changing the way that you interact with the world. But now it's familiar. It's easy. It's Perhaps even comfortable Yeah, so that when you're presented with a good thing, you're like nah, you know interesting what about Do you think that okay? some of the struggles that maybe women like Christian women inside the church or inside dwell are Grappling with are sort of different from larger like struggles with For women in our culture. Are they sort of do you see overlaps there? I don't know in terms of like Encouraging or Exhorting compelling women to excel still more and go for you know, like Continue to I don't know encourage spiritual growth and steps of faith and stuff like that Another trend I'm definitely seeing is a decrease in Speaking the truth in love. I do think like there is some sort of aversion to that to Call people to scripture to call people to truth Like you were saying really exhort people to go for it with God to speak in on different areas To share script like I think that there is a total aversion to doing that I think there's a huge fear of people responding badly. I think there's a fear of Being pressure II I think there's I just think that there are so many reasons why I Think women are not even yeah, even helping each other Uh-huh really like live up to the call of scripture to listen to God and be over themselves and what they want and what they desire and So I think that that probably intersects with some of the stuff that we're talking about here, too I felt that way even myself in discipleship where I feel like the past several years I've been praying about like wow, I'm having a really hard time even just sharing a verse with someone Here's this here's how this verse applies to this situation or okay. You're in conflict. Well Matthew 7 Let's take the log out of your own eye, you know It's like I think that's been really difficult to even do that and even a small way showing scripture So yeah, I definitely think that that's a trend I've seen and I mean obviously if we're not calling each other to Scripture and God's standard I think that's gonna be hard to then live that out in a meaningful way or even make calls to women that they then respond to positively Right if they're okay. Not only are there maybe There's like this narrative coming from our culture that the church is Bad for women Christianity is misogynistic or something like that But then right this this sort of additional cultural trend of like yeah, you can't you need to accept everyone and it is like hate speech to You know confront or give someone negative feedback You know what? I mean? Like if we so then it's like right in situations like this From a biblical perspective if I'm like, well, yeah, but but I'm called to speak into someone's life and you know, like Challenge You know Negativity or you know concerning aspects of someone's life, you know these things sort of compound right and sort of bleed into one another yeah make it difficult to make challenging calls and Confront people and totally yeah Yeah and I had a very interesting conversation a couple months ago with one of the women that I disciple and mentor and we were talking about a Conversation she had actually with two of the women in our group that had received Christ and they were talking to her about Something that God was calling them to do and a step of faith to take but they were like Oh, maybe I'll get around to that nine months from now Hmm, and so the girl I was talking to was like, yeah, that makes sense and like totally I'll support whatever Yeah, I'm gonna do and I'm totally here for you and like go at your pace And so I had this conversation with her like, okay, that's great. But also Have you considered the lag time in taking steps of faith? Uh-huh, you know, have you considered what that might do to them in their faith, you know passages about yeah If you hear the Lord's voice today respond then there's like urgency and saying yes to God And I think I think she that that was a very different perspective that she hadn't considered But I think even the idea of then going back and talking to those women to be like man You should act on this conviction now. I think was very intimidating for her Yeah I think that was very hard for her to even think about how would I even do that because that feels like it comes off Pressure II or I don't want to just be like you have to do these things and so yeah, I feel like that's a just a great example of what we're talking about even something that These women are saying I'm hearing this from God. Uh-huh. It's even hard to be like yeah, and you should do that. Yeah Yeah, it's interesting. It sounds like you know Yeah, how much of this is just sort of parroting, you know Tick-tock social media speech, you know, like which is like a firm a firm. Yes, you know like Yeah, so it just bleeds into the way that we communicate with one another and it's like wait a second like Let's you know, how about we yeah bring in some biblical lingo here and you know, yeah yeah, and I think that that underscores this like other concern or I guess another trend that I've seen inside or Outside the church. Is that like I myself am in the center of my life. Mm-hmm And so God is kind of this like appendage, you know Like he might maybe get us he can maybe tell me his advice and opinion But really like I'm the main character and I'm deciding what I'm going to do And then I think yeah to then step in and call people to know you should actually respond to God Uh-huh, and he should get more of a say than you do. He's the main character, you know, right? We're all side characters here and and you know What God is doing I think is a very difficult thing to say to our current culture totally main character energy, right? Like yeah for sure. Yeah, I think I was thinking about that same idea like With and I guess your original question like how to how does this play these like values of our culture? How do they play into like actually the work within the church of winning women or whatever? I think that's probably one of the points where someone comes to Christ maybe they're like really excited about their faith and the transition from that to Giving their whole life to him is truly like the replacement of like I am in charge of my life That's right. And now Christ is in charge of my life and that transition or like switch inside of someone's heart I think is where I Don't know. I mean obviously that's just hard. It's hard for people to be Yeah in this in this role where they've been told their whole life like You especially right now like you Look within yourself to find truth. That's where that's where truth is found like look within yourself Don't look around you but like truly within yourself is the truth and then here comes Christ saying like actually I'm the truth right and the way and literally and so like no longer to look within yourself I like look at me and I think that that's where we keep running into issues is like yeah Why would I? Who are you Christ for me to like now put you at? the center of my life like we were just talking the other day in our home church about um, we're studying through John and we're talking about when Jesus says in John 8, I am the light of the world and There's like reality of people walking in darkness and they're told Like the light is within yourself and how just disturbing that is to feel like Okay, I need to answer all these huge life questions like where am I going when I die? Why do I value what I value what's truly right and wrong all these things are supposed to look within themselves to find this And how relieving it is when Jesus is like, no, I am the light of the world like if you follow me, you will not walk in darkness and it's like So cool and so relieving but I think it's hard for people to Come to terms with that. Yeah Yeah, the gospel coalition did an article recently about Jen hat makers book awake, which is a memoir where she writes about basically her quote-unquote D conversion okay, and her like falling out of Christianity and belief in God and the end of the book concludes with this quote. It's just so good She says the one who never quit is me the one who will never lie to me is me the one who will always love Me as me the one who will always protect me as me and the one who will always choose me is me Wow and so in the article, they were basically talking about how this is What women are thinking is that I myself am at the center and they kind of do a little tangent of how maybe our therapy? Culture fits and yeah, but I thought that that was such a great like yes. This is what our culture is promoting is Especially for women you are at the center. You are the agent of your life It is you and I think yeah making that transition from me to Christ is very difficult. Mm-hmm. And yet Isn't there also a trend right so me at the center love yourself support yourself, you know, like and Yet the numbers actually don't support that. This is working right like great Especially for like women like the younger you are the more your mental health is like in the literal Toilet like right all of these trends towards like people are suffering people are depressed people are anxious Especially women and so it's like, okay, so Simultaneously this concept being promoted of like you do you and yeah main character energy and yet it's like it's not Translating it's not working at all Women are actually really struggling, right? Yeah. I mean there's so much pressure. I think on women to to succeed and Perform and just even the imp to have the right image even and I think all of that Well on the one hand, they're they're chasing because those are their values that they're driving, you know, their drives their whatever I think it's also simultaneously crushing them, too. Yeah, we can't Ever meet the standards that we place on ourselves or other people place on us or even that The things maybe if I get it, it's not as fulfilling. Yeah, right as I thought it was gonna be which We know in the word that that's true, right John 10 The thief has come to kill and destroy but Christ came to give life and life abundance So we know that the things of the world are not going to satisfy it's gonna return empty But I think that's what these women are experiencing for sure, right? Plus I'm curious like okay What are I know that you have looked a bit sort of specifically? Okay What are some of the values maybe coming out of our culture that are I don't know that maybe resonates specifically with women these days I didn't know if you wanted to speak a bit about that Yeah, it was kind of interesting because I don't feel like I'm like super culturally with to be honest Cuz I grew up in Brazil when I like came back when I was in middle school Someone asked me who Britney's oh if I like some Britney Spears song and I had no idea who Britney Spears But I was in seventh grade. So of course, I never admitted that and I just said like yeah, I love that song Of course I do. Yes. What did you listen to in Brazil? Remember? No, we just had like great dancing music Like I just I was just so clue. So this All this to say I really had to look into like what content are people listening to I'm not with it Okay, I'm not really like with the times suffer Confession, I really like watching the Kardashians. This is like a really garbage person. It's like a I yeah I'm not even I wouldn't say that's my this is like a secret. That's not a secret. No, it's not it's on a podcast People now. No, okay. Yeah yeah, we can talk about Kim and them later, but Besides that I had to do a lot of research on like what kind of content are women taking in? and These kind of trends so, you know, people are really into reality TV. People are really into true crime Yeah, like just all these this is the kind of stuff people are Taking in and it's pointing to these so that's the content and then they're taking it Basically, they're kind of like showing these larger trends people are pursuing women in this like when I say women It's like, you know ages 17 to like young 30s or something. It was the was the category or like age whatever range I was like, yeah, but they're looking they're really like Fitting into these four different categories of pursuing like healing So this is a big era trend is like you're pursuing your mental health inner peace Boundaries self-care people aren't really all about that right now. There's the villain era Which I kind of love this. I kind of love this cultural trend They're just all about like embracing selfishness reject people pleasing Lean into power. Uh-huh. And I mean you see this if you're you know around any sort of content for women this age You see this in people their value of autonomy a lot of like women sexual empowerment Movement a lot of stuff on that Is all coming from this sort of be powerful be strong You don't need a man, but like you can get one that kind of vibe and you can dominate that man. Yeah Yeah, right And then there's the last kind of two eras are The de lulu era. I did not know about this. Okay, this is more de lulu delusional confidence and Love this and this is like as a form of manifestation and optimism. So, you know, I'm just like going to Manifest the good things that are coming my way Which is really close to lucky girl syndrome, which is the last era that is happening Okay And it's kind of this view of like everything just works out for me So I'm gonna take this posture in my life everything works out for me, which kind of sound all those things Sound nice. Oh But underneath all these are these kind of five different values like Authenticity so something kind of different a shift for women is instead of such a high value on like presenting as the perfect girl Which was the trend however many years ago people are starting to really take in content That's more like raw and unfiltered and they're loving that and it's like a it's I think a positive Movement because people are wanting to know the real you So authenticity is one value emotional vulnerability people want to be able to see people's feelings Be honest, you know about whatever Self expression and identity exploration. So people are really trying to define themselves and you can see this in all types of conversations people are looking for like What can I? Point to that gives me definition and value There's a real big emphasis on social activism and awareness, which is also I think really cool People are really maybe also on one hand There's the value we were talking about about like you don't want to you don't want to offend you want to be like, you know Do your thing speak your truth? but there's also a shift to actually like I don't care who I offend if you guys don't agree with me like you are Completely my enemy totally and so it's a weird like both are valued But both are completely different like you can now it's like people hating other people's kind of justified because like well they're just on the wrong side of the line or something and Then the last value and not in order of necessarily but the wellness which undergirds the like healing era is this kind of? wellness and mental health emphasis So those are kind of the values that were coming out from this just like looking at content trends what people are wanting What's hard and what I think was relieving to you. What's hard is if you look at what's under What are the beliefs under those values? It's a belief that like I'm at the center like we were saying and I determine what You know what's important to me or something? But there's a bunch of things that these values don't answer That are missing from them like the foundation of your values like why where do they come from right? Are you just are you just like trending? You know, why do you why is this important the stability of your values? Like how long will this last for you? Are you gonna have this value in like five years? What about 25 years? The direction like where are they taking me and the purpose of them like why? Like if I value these things Will that matter in the end and also the finality of them like where is it taking me in the end? So there are a lot of things that are missing even though the values are really enticing I think They can't answer all the big life questions and they're founded on this belief that I'm at the center Which we can't agree on from the biblical perspective we like fundamentally disagree with this belief that like I am good because the Bible says like you're absolutely not mm-hmm and the heart is deceitful above all else Jeremiah 17 like we we have this like it's a like a totally Opposing our culture the beliefs are but I think the connection or the bridge is the values. Hmm like we can Connect and like see in Scripture the value for being authentic for being honest with our emotions for wellness for Being being like advocates for people and I think Jesus embodies. That's what's cool about This is Jesus embodies the values that women are pursuing and that's like the connection point that we can have With women right now, I think yeah, that's great It's interesting to me to that like some of the values that you're mentioning Were also things we were talking about as like barriers like that women value authenticity and honesty and community But at the same time we're having a hard time With women actually engaging in community or being honest. Mm-hmm. Like do you have a thought on like why there is that discrepancy? It probably goes back to what we're saying about Who is that like? Ascent who's the main character, you know, I think People can be brought to the person of Christ like someone who maybe has all these values but doesn't know Christ could look at the Gospels and be so attracted to who Christ is like you know that he There are all these different passages. We're looking at you know with the way that he interacts with Mary specifically. Yeah, and how he is empowering her to risk to sit at the feet of Like of a rabbi and receive instruction that that was countercultural, you know Or the way that he weeps with her or the way that he loves her family and like spends time in her home there are all these things like that that you look at that you're like, well, I If I'm a woman in this current age, I would see that and want to spend time with him But then the switch to like, okay. Well now that person is the person governing my life and no longer me That's where it's like, uh-huh disconnect. Yeah. Yeah hard for people to see that That like I would actually choose to trust God Instead of my own emotions. Yeah, I really love just as a quick plug Rebecca McLaughlin has that book. I don't know came out a couple years ago Jesus through the eyes of women Where she sort of goes through? Just sort of systematically like looking through the gospel pages for like yeah Was is Christianity misogynistic like is it like well you just have to like be subservient to all the men and It's like that that's not at all the picture that we see in the Bible, you know Like we see him, you know uplifting and creating a space for and having very specific roles for women That that narrative is it's just false, you know, like This sort of misogynistic perspective on Christianity, which yeah, so just as a plug I really like that read Do you guys think that there I don't know if you can answer this maybe you can Do you think that there have been? shifts like inside of dwell Maybe like in the last decade or in your I don't know tenure in college ministry specifically That I don't know might be contributing to some of these these Changes that you're noticing with women We just haven't talked much specifically about like, okay. How about inside like our community? one one Thing that comes to mind which I think is a really positive is actually your content that you taught recently at our class Um Like you and the women's class that we took on a Friday night standing firm in the truth, right? Yeah That there's like content that is being taught For women about singleness. Mm-hmm. I think that's like a really important ship that's happening to help people see that The like peak of a Christian woman is not getting married and having a family, okay, and Not that anyone is explicitly saying that I don't think anyone's like no one has ever told me that right, you know, thank God But I think there's a lot that's learned by people looking around and seeing like what are the examples in front of me and the people like make assumptions about Life or maybe like the yeah what I could what I could do or what I could accomplish or something based on just observing people around me and And so starting to have more conversations about The security that we have as women in Christ being the most important thing so that you can handle anything that would happen in your life Whether it involves like something happening to a marriage something happening to your family something happening, you know in any Sort of thing. I think explicit content on that topic was actually really Cool and something that I I I mean it's been in the past couple years that I think we've at least that I've heard content on that That's it. I think helpful. It's interesting because okay, so I'm eight years removed from college ministry And so this conversation wasn't a conversation that we were having back then and in fact, I think the trends historically have been kind of different where it was like You know typically it was like you had these You know sort of driven Women you could count on the women in your home church. They were sort of I Don't know maybe even trending more spiritual and you know that it was like a lot of the times It was like how do a rally our dudes, you know, like these like I don't know just as Men this failure to launch and you know what? I mean like Where it was like yeah, the the women had a lot of I don't know drive and spiritual interest and a spiritual pulse and so it's interesting again Like this conversation is kind of new to me because I feel like that was sort of the trend the entire I don't know 14 years or however long I was in the college ministry before moving up to an adult home group. So it's like, okay At least people seem to be articulating. That's not the trend anymore point one, right another thing I know We again in the time that I spent in the college ministry Most of that time. It's like we had like a figure like Ruth Welsh you know sort of in That you know sort of top-tiered role sort of, you know, right teaching our Big group meetings our central teachings every week, you know leading Us a sphere of you know home churches and and men and women You know teaching regularly like classes raising up sort of like men you know as a female and you know, they pivoted and You know, she sort of stepped out of that role to go do other awesome stuff overseas, you know, but I wonder This is a hypothesis But I wonder if it created a bit of a vacuum, you know where it's like, oh, we haven't had someone We haven't had a woman in that role for about 15 years now You know, and we've got great teachers. This is this is not like a dig obviously like the male leadership or something like that, but it's like I wonder if Yeah, part of that is like not and it's like, okay. We got Chris Chris is awesome But at this point anyway, Chris mostly teaches adult CTS, correct? Yeah, and Kate myself they've Kate but not a teacher Regularly, yeah, and they both are in adult. Mm-hmm So it's like they're not they're not playing as forward They're not in as forward-facing of a position as Ruth was, you know 15 years ago or whatever Yeah, and I think representation Has increasingly like increasing importance I think for this generation, too totally, like I feel like always, you know casually when we're talking about this topic of winning women people without fail or like We want to see a woman CT teacher regularly that always comes up without fail because I think Representation is incredibly important for people especially now. But yeah, you want to be able to see oh I could do that, right? You know, here's someone who is like me Really going all out for God and that could be me. I was even thinking, you know a decade ago We had Jenny Hale who was teaching the larger meeting for our high school So you had Ruth Welsh in college and you had Jenny Hale in the high school and I think that was awesome Yeah, interesting. So it's I feel like that's such a hard because you know, clearly God appoints, right? Yeah, and we trust his sovereignty there for sure. But yeah, I think you're right there there is some of that and Yeah, maybe there's something to be said about like what you're saying a while ago care about There needs to be a way to give women like a positive vision a positive vision for Themselves and how could God how could them giving their life to Christ? empower them to be authentic and Like do act like be be active be like fighting for people Have these kind of like how is it that giving your life to Christ could? Help you further embody the values that you already value and actually he could give foundation to them and you know all these things I wonder if What like one way to have positive vision is that kind of thing like representation, you know, I'm seeing people and part of why this problem actually I'm guessing another reason this happens is because women who would be doing those things are having kids totally, you know and Staying at home and or whatever you are and that night. I'm not even trying to say like trying to survive Just trying to get by Yeah, so so there's like something interesting about like They're awesome women. I even think about like women in this sphere that I'm in who were like Amazing and they're doing all this work, but it's like behind the scenes like you said I was not like forward-facing. Uh-huh Because they're focusing on like raising their families, uh-huh and In doing all these other things, so it's hard to you're not gonna tell them to not do that You know, I don't know. Maybe you are tricky. I'm not I Was like no family Yeah, like there it could be you know women teaching CT But maybe it could look like other things and I don't really know all those things. I think Something that I've seen is in the past couple years people have started to hire more women on their staff Oh, yeah, which is cool because then you have women meeting with people from you know, a bunch of different home churches, which is awesome and helpful. Mm-hmm but I wonder if there's a way to make that happen more like some sort of way to Help people see like here. There's there's so many different options for you as a woman. Mm-hmm what it could look like for you to have right longevity and Meaning and like purpose for your faith and your walk with God. Maybe that means like more overlap between College students and like women who have been following Christ for a long time. Mm-hmm Who can come and maybe talk more about that? We actually had a teaching on that one time It was like a couple years ago for our women's fear retreat We had something on like lifelong faithfulness and they had women teach from all these different age age ranges Yeah, and it was cool and people that are coming and being one from the world. They don't have all these Connections with all these older believers, huh? So maybe we could facilitate that more interesting, you know, yeah to circle back to sort of like What we were talking about, you know earlier is like, okay There's this emphasis on career and sort of like in our culture. It's like women are you know, okay? Let's smash the the glass ceiling and women as CEOs and women, you know Yeah again the main character energy, but specifically with career where it's like, okay Turns out women can be doctors and lawyers and you know, like Yeah, great good love that trend for us There's actually a great statistic on that. That's 60% of people with a bachelor's degree are women. There you go Exactly on case in point, right? That's all we need that out there so then it's like if it's like again the narrative from our culture is Women can do anything women can go to space women can get back And Yet What a hero Okay, yeah, there's no limits right like women can career-wise okay do it do it all but then Yeah, like if it's like there's again if there's like a If there's a vacuum of like but mostly what we're seeing in the church, and I'm not saying that this is true But if this is the perception or if this is the narrative inside the church Yeah, you become a trad wife and you bake bread and you stay home. I am trying to be in my sourdough era I feel like I should just give it up man. And I also asked for an apron for Christmas I just want to Come clean. I just I just feel like I need to share that I'm currently failing at sourdough, but okay, okay Right, so it's like okay. What do we do example is Calissa? Okay Yeah, what do we do about this if it's like? but we actually do affirm women can lead and women, you know like can teach and women can be elders and you know It's like we don't just believe this because we're following the trends of our culture like we actually believe that like the Bible supports women, you know in leadership and Sort of an egalitarian perspective on women in these roles So, what do we do about it though if it's like well we don't necessarily have that at this moment We pray for it, you know We pray that God would raise someone up and it is kind of tricky because you're like Statistically Yeah, most women still they do get married and then statistically. Yeah, most of them do have kids and that sort of Often pivots the direction of your life and maybe opportunities to play some of these again more forward-facing roles. It's hard to like yeah, probably like gear up and teach home teach teach like a You know a central teaching a big, you know a Sunday, I guess you guys have them in the evenings But when it's like I got two kids at home and you know, yeah Okay, I have an idea on this are you gonna say something Yeah, but you can say okay two ideas one of them is that women who are in those roles like maybe you're Someone who like would teach a CT and you have kids Like and just I think people becoming parents have to choose to do hard things and be committed like I'm going to do the thing. That's really hard. Mm-hmm I remember I was talking to Chris Risley Oh, I was like emailing her the other week because I was teaching a big meeting and my kids were sick the whole weekend Slept terrible, of course, and she had emailed me like I am praying for your teaching this week and I was like, wow Thanks, like my kids are Like I'm not sleeping. It's not working. Yeah No, but she was she had said she like responded I was like every single time Before I taught a big meeting. Hmm My kids got sick totally were little and that was so helpful for me to hear like there's someone else who's doing this kind of thing Who is just like? Gets it like you and if there's like I think the decision that has to be made like people who are Playing those roles have to be committed. Like I'm just gonna do the thing That's hard even when it's like I'm trying to put this thing together and and God will show up like every time and he Right provides the people to help watch your kid and he provide, you know Yeah so there's that part think like People being committed to doing that so that women can be like wow I could be a mom and I can teach and I can disciple and I serious about following God I can be right high commitment. Yes. Yeah, and you know, I can do that. Yeah, I basically so they can see that And then another I guess another idea on this topic of like how to do this is to encourage Our women to be creative and then do something with it Like have an idea and then implement it see what happens like I think about Ali Woodruff, she was like recently so sharing some of this in a meeting recently about like starting up a group of basically like a high school group out of nothing basically and It wasn't in her timing and it wasn't you know It wasn't something she could have seen But she had this thing and she was faithful with it and it's something awesome is being accomplished with that Mm-hmm sitting encouraging people to be creative. Mm-hmm, but then also being committed like I will make the decision to do hard things and Yeah, period that's like what I'm gonna do. I think that's really good, especially because it's like Again to sort of combat the narrative like well, I was really serious about following God But then I got married and had a couple kids and now I'm like, I don't know I'm just changing diapers, you know And so like I'll check back in like when my kids are in school full-time and you know what I mean like and it's like No, hold on. Wait, wait. Yeah, maybe what God is asking you to do is legitimately different for this season of your life for sure totally But it doesn't mean right saying no. Mm-hmm, right or it doesn't even mean Waiting it's like right. What is that step of faith? What does faithfulness look like and that we promote like man, what an awesome example? Yeah Yeah, yeah, and I think I feel like there's things I've heard over the years so this is kind of maybe moving away from the College high school and into the you know older having kids era, but I feel like I'll regularly hear things like oh Well, you know when you have little babies, it's just impossible to get time with God It's like don't even worry about you're just trying to survive, right? Like yeah, I mean discipleship I mean it's great if you even just get to pray with your disciples right when you got little kids and I remember being so mad about that when I was pregnant because and I understand why I understand why people say that because you're trying to help these women be under grace that this isn't incredibly hard like Having a kid and all that your body goes through and all your hormones and everything. That's actually really difficult But I remember a friend and I talking when we were pregnant and being like screw that we're gonna do it We're gonna do discipleship. We're gonna do time with God and I remember thinking If I do anything in my discipleship, it's gonna be study the word with my disciples because Lord knows I don't have any good My brain is soup. I'm not sleeping. So instead of us talking. How about we study the word and That's what we did. I remember studying With one of my disciples toward an Old Testament theology by Kaiser when I had a newborn Wow, and I tuned out most the time. I just remember being like what's one sentence I could comment You know, but I think it was good for her to have that time Studying content studying scripture. I think one of my other girls when I my second kid we did the book of Revelation and again I'm like, I was barely there for any of that, but it's like God's Word was the thing Yeah, yeah, or you know, my friend and I we talked about how are we gonna fight hard for really good time with God? And again, yes, we want to be under grace in a crazy transition in crazy time And we don't want women to feel bad when they're struggling But I think sometimes some of those comments actually undermine all of what women are capable of doing even having kids So I feel like I regularly I get people being like, whoa You taught when you had a kid that's crazy and I'm like, it's not great like like but we can do it Yeah, it's crazy. It was insane But like God provided or yeah regularly Chris will be like Kira you try to take on more than people probably should Like any given moment I'm like, yeah, but you know Isaiah 40 God is the one that's gonna give strength to the weary into the Week, he doesn't ever get tired. He's gonna give me what I need. So obviously there's also wisdom too and we're taking on but yeah, I think Actually putting that forward for women can be really cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's almost like a Like you have to the way that we're I guess Helping women see, you know, what could they be like a different? State is a life or something It's like what we want people to be under grace But we also want people to count themselves out right before the time. Mm-hmm. That's that kind of like Yeah, I feel that way even about you know, okay It's taking a step back from teaching when you're have a little kid or something I'm like, well some people like like I'm the person that's like I want to because that will help me feel alive and like a Real human when I'm out here studying and teaching like some people will have to take a little bit more time and whatever like each Like how you say that it just teaches up to each his own and some of that's a gifting thing, too Yeah, right, you know, yeah, I'm gifted in teaching so that gave life to me and that was really great But yeah, that might be different. Yeah. Yeah, but but again the point stands of like Right, so let's not take five years off From yeah serving in whatever way saying yes to God in whatever way So maybe it's not necessarily teaching but yeah this that we are we're continuing to encourage and empower like Faithfulness right and right What are the areas that that you want to serve and that you want to you know, like pour into people and say yes to God Yeah, and I think that comes back to our discussion on like God actually being the center and I feel like yeah So whatever God is putting forward and putting in front of me that I'm saying yes to that Regardless of my own plans of my life or regardless of maybe how I feel like I couldn't possibly do this It's it's the same thing. It just Wears different I guess looks different, but I'm like, yeah what we need to do is like submit that to God at the end of the day and I wonder if You know Yeah again to sort of combat the the false trad wife narrative is Yeah having conversations and also praying Right for the Lord to sort of raise up women that don't Women that are single maybe they never marry, you know what I mean? Or yeah, like women that Have a their life goes off course, right? Things don't plan out pan out the way that you thought that they would Yeah, that it's like maybe that instead of just viewing that as like well that you're kind of defective You know like because you don't you don't look like everyone else and I don't know you're not a breeder or whatever Okay, wait Yeah, but like That we're having these conversations not it's not this cookie-cutter This is the path to spiritual maturity, you know that it's like what could you do in your singleness? How is that an advantage to you? Yeah, or where you know like whatever season you're in right now right what does faithfulness look like bigger picture but maybe specifically Yeah, sort of Yeah Regarding I guess the the concept of singleness and how is that an advantage to yeah Yeah What you might maybe you know instead of just feeling sad and my life doesn't look like my peers and you know Like cursing God Yeah, maybe this is maybe this is a blessing. Maybe this is a good thing. This is the Bible affirms Singleness is good. Right, right like okay So, how do we sort of empower women to believe that that's true and that there are advantages to it maybe? And yeah that we that we pray that that God would raise up women single women. Yeah, and I think Whenever I'm in a discussion about like, okay, why why isn't there a woman, you know teacher? That's you know for facing all these things I'll normally respond with well, why couldn't that be you totally? Why couldn't that be the women that you're meeting with and cycling and I feel like I'm like, yeah when God calls Would I be in a position to say yes to God? Yeah, you know And so I think that's part of what we also need to help women The way like help them think through conceptualize. So it isn't just like oh the big bad church. Yeah Women away from these roles. It's like no God at some point We'll call and you know You better be ready to answer the call or you better be discipling the women who are gonna answer the call to them, right? and I mean, I feel like that's The thing that I was thinking about was I think discipleship is really the thing here That that is gonna be the method by which we really win women into like real deep commitment to Christ I was thinking I actually um, I don't think I ever saw Ruth Welsh teach CT our larger meeting Scott Risley taught he was in my home church So I always went wherever he went, but it was his wife Chris Discipling me that really made the largest impact on me. And I think it was her example I think she had like two little kids and discipled five other women, you know and Was functionally, you know leading their sphere their group of groups of home churches without the title She was so hardcore and I think it was seeing that that really impacted me The most Or, you know, it was her vision of being like, yeah You can be a woman of the word and you can be a hard core and you can do a ton for God like both her And Jenny Hale I think are these amazingly strong women that love the word and they're so hardcore And I think it was discipleship that persuaded me of that. Wow. God actually has a school a real purpose for me He can use me to disciple and raise up other women for Christ. And so I think that that's part of our Yeah winning Strategy or winning method. It's been the same as what Jesus told us in Matthew 28, right? So when when disciples and I think that's how we're gonna actually win women into, you know buying into this vision I think that's really good Kira and I think like Yeah, it would be unfortunate if we're just like well there's nothing we can do until God like brings us a female CT teacher, you know, like Yeah, that it's like man, I think that there is empowering I think that there is like, you know Promoting of these ideas. Yeah in the in the sort of grassroots Relationships of discipleship of like, okay, right We're having these conversations and and I'm seeing these examples and that these women are going hard. Yeah, it's awesome Yeah, and I think that's where Like we push back against the ground that Satan has taken Like it's in discipleship that we're like we speak the truth in love and we put out the word for people to agree with or We help women develop thoughtfulness and not just consumerism, you know It's like that that's the battleground in which we do a lot of those things So I think I mean kind of similar to our earlier discussion I think that's why like speaking the truth in love and being bold with God's Word really matters It's like that's where we actually win women to agree with God on those things I wonder too if we can maybe sharpen the way that we Talk with women when they're like first being one to Christ about like Asking them. What can they contribute? Like what? Basically, like what do you bring to the table? Mm-hmm Even if they're just brand new like what do you bring to the table that you can? Contribute to this home church. Mm-hmm can that you can contribute to these relationships because then it helps people see like oh I Have a like something to do here totally like we've been trying to do that. I mean We have a bunch of seniors coming into our college group right now and it's so fun and they're and I'm like I'm so grateful for them. There's like a whole squad of them And they're so fun and they have all this energy and I was just talking to two of the guys Last week about this like what are you gonna bring to this group? What are your strengths? how are you gonna contribute because like we need you here and we're gonna need the strengths that you're bringing and and So I think that conversation can happen in discipleship, but that also needs to be happening I think from like yeah, but the men in our home church to these women who've always had relationships with men I don't say always often. Mm-hmm have had relationships with men that are unhealthy. Hmm, or Yeah, then they don't maybe come from a place of having like strong male friendships This is a part that like the men in our home church could really play with these women is like honoring them by asking them What they contribute what are their strengths? What do they care about and helping them see like how could Christ? really hone these things that you already love if you give your life to him and how And I think help helping use like the whole body of Christ to win women Is a real Will be a real asset to trying to keep winning them Yeah, I think that's good. It would be Unfortunate if it's like well, the takeaway is like, you know, I Don't know just Just okay. We need to focus on this like one gender That's just not that's not the body of Christ, you know I mean like so it can't just be like well, we have a women problem and that's something for women to solve But like exactly if we have a women problem that's also a men problem, you know what I mean? Like there's no such thing as women problems In this context, you know, I mean like in different context Yeah, so it's like okay if this is a trend Yeah, how do we how do we write what what is the role for men to play to come alongside and I Don't know but certainly there is a role. Yeah for men to play here. Mm-hmm One thing we were talking about last summer with this kind of idea of like how could what how could men? I'm gonna win How could um men help in this is For us to maybe have conversations with the men who are teaching our home churches to help think through the content and like the application of their teachings and Looking at the values that we were talking about looking at the trends for women If you're going to reach a woman in this current context Yeah Then it will be beneficial for you to have this information on the values that they care about so that you can highlight two people In the T the passages that you're teaching. Where do these values come up? Mm-hmm And that will help be relevant. I think it's just easy because things are changing so fast right now To kind of be like a step behind what is relevant and I don't know maybe this is actually This is from last summer. Maybe it's already irrelevant, but Just things are changing. So it's helpful to have these conversations about keeping your teachings Sharp so that they can actually Reach what women are really caring about even that little shift from like, oh, you know the perfect image to like well Actually now they want more Genuine and like unfiltered content. That's like a small one that Matters like those are the small things we can kind of highlight in our teaching. So that's another thing. Yeah, that's good That's really practical, you know, like totally you want I mean, I feel like that is part of the job of the teacher, right? You want to be culturally relevant and know your audience? Yeah, so it's like okay this that would be really helpful information to have right? Yeah, I love that point too about the men in our home church Having those spiritual conversations with the women about yeah, what can you contribute? What do you want to accomplish for God? I think that's really good because I was actually thinking about some of the women that we've won to commitment recently in our group And I think it's been the guys in our home church that have actually had those conversations with them I remember one in particular. He was like talking to This new girl that we had coming around She just started coming around in the fall about discipleship and why discipleship is great and why learning was awesome And then like literally 24 hours later. She approached me and was like, can you disciple me? Can you meet with Wow and I almost my heart almost exploded because I was like we have literally Disciple so many women for six years and they've all been like no, we're not interested in that at all Comes this woman who's begging to be discipled. I was just like that is not I just went and I cried I went away and I just cried cuz I was like what a crazy answered prayer that wasn't we've just been praying literally our home Church has been praying every day for the past two years probably maybe you're gonna have To win women, so it was really cool But I think it was largely due to That guy in our home church sitting down with her talking to her about her relationship with God and really encouraging her to seek out You know learning in that way. So I think that point is really good closely. It's awesome I'm curious You know you two are high commitment women faithful serving the Lord great examples, I guess I'm curious like What do you think contributed to that or like why are you still here why are you still Going hard and you shared some about like, you know, just Chris's example. That sounds very specific But if there's other things individually like yeah what contributed? Yeah, I remember in high school Jenny Hale would say this thing. She'd be like serve or die and It sounds intense because it was and she is indeed and I love her But I think that that was so helpful for me I think my mom also was really good at this that we are gonna make our lives about other people So we are gonna serve other people. We're gonna put other people's needs above our own That's gonna be the way that we're gonna live or we're going to spiritually die Mm-hmm, and I think again that counteracts against this me first. Yeah me main character or whatever But I think that also counteracts a current cultural shift to where yeah individuality versus community Mm-hmm the idea that I would be I would maybe put the needs of the community above my own is not something I think our culture thinks or once or is engaged with and so but obviously that's what the Bible says, right that It's better to give than receive and you know, you think about Philippians 2 Yes, don't be selfish put others needs above your own And so I think for me that was huge this orienting my life around. How can I serve other people? Yeah, how can I contribute positively to my home church? How can I love other people put myself? second and I think That has been the thing that's really carried me through. I think a lot of life transitions even difficulties in ministry Suffering difficulties with God personal things. I think has been that conviction that you know, I show up to home church because this is about other people and You know, I am loved by God and that's why I couldn't give love away And I think that that was actually like really really key for me That's awesome. What a mantra serve or die That's a big takeaway from today Yeah, but I again I mean I think that that combats against that consumerism Christianity I go I plop Mm-hmm, I receive But then if I don't receive then I'm like, well, should I even be here anymore? Maybe this doesn't really meet my needs. Maybe I need to go look for something else I feel like and that that's what gives you that that sense of purpose Yeah that we talked about God can actually use me to impact eternity is awesome yeah, and experiencing that is awesome that God can actually use me to have like deep friendships that are meaningful and Yeah, I think all that's really important And I think that it's not just like well high commitment to the Lord means female elders or female, you know Central teaching teacher or a sphere leader, you know here and dwell The high commitment is is yeah, it's faithfulness is laying your life down, you know, so it's like Even if that isn't the the path that is opening or it's like I'm going straight to the top Shattering. Yeah, exactly but it's like no high commitment isn't like being the CEO of dwell or something like that, but like Yeah, it's like right. It's let me loop back down to the bottom and let me serve Mm-hmm, and let me be really committed to that and see what God, you know, see what role God has for me Yeah, that'd be awesome something that has kind of struck me the past couple years is I'm Thinking about this idea of like, okay, we are the people around us are Like very committed, you know spending nights out doing things with people doing ministry do it discipling people, you know all these things and It struck me a couple years ago like I could do all these things and Still maybe not be following the call of Christ like lay down my whole life, you know, like I could I Could whatever teach whatever and be like, I'm I'm actually I think the call of Christ if if we're honest and this is what I was coming to and I was looking at The Gospels at this time and I was like thinking about this is the call of Christ is actually so high To give your whole life. Mm-hmm that it really can't be Boxed into like going to these meetings or you know discipling these women at this time of the week or something. It's like It's just been sobering for me to think about Like the call of Christ is literally your entire life to to such an extent and his example was so You know Insane that he went and died for that like I'm I think it's sobering to come to the word and I think that's what you Were saying to care like the idea of the convictions to to live a life that is difficult You're making hard decisions to be committed to things that comes from Personal interactions with God in the word. Mm-hmm. That's like I If I'm honest Christ, like I could be doing all these things people other people will think I'm high committed But like am I truly in my heart committed to you in this way that I like would give my entire life to you Has been a sobering thing to like keep coming back to Even in like a high commitment maybe environment There has to be an integrity of our own Decision before Christ like do I? Do I really still am I still this committed to you? And do I really understand the depth of your call? Mm-hmm, and I don't think in any way that I'm like always like Really ever like that. I think there's a lot of day even now like with parenting and stuff I'm like, there's some days where I'm like, what did I even do today? Was there anything of value, you know, and I Think then there's other days. I'm like we did way too much today like this was probably negative for my kids because we were like way overdoing it and that's I'm assuming that's just like the life of someone trying to follow God is somebody some days you're like Yeah, I was doing more things for myself today. And then other days you're like that was Too much. I was they doing the most for other people and then that was actually negative for these other people in my house you know, so there's like a I guess a decision for Commitment to Christ that comes from personal interaction with him in the world, right? I do think the influence an example of other women is really also valuable Yeah, like I when you talked about your mom was like, yeah, my mom actually for me has been probably the most Pivotal like person in my life for following Christ and that's Encouraging for people who are moms realize like I could have that impact on my kids But she's just Watching her like every I would wake up every single day there She is reading her Bible every single day when I woke up and I'm watching her commitment to Christ her commitment to sharing Christ with people Sitting next to her on the airplanes and she's like sharing her sharing Christ with everyone in the air But I'm just like things that even as a little kid. I'm like, okay mom But super impactful for me and she's someone that I talked to a lot about that kind of stuff like about just like longevity and faith and It's helpful to kind of have a zoom out out of the current Life whatever I Love that you're hitting on that like personal interaction with God, too I think that's so true and I was just thinking as you were talking like yeah, like building not only trust in Scripture But it trusts of God is really important to that God is someone that I know that I can actually trust to hand my life over to I think is so important like All of the gospel coalition articles I was just reading that they put out on women and winning women and why women are you know? Not willing to be in the church and even that quote that I read earlier that I think a lot of women have these negative experiences of people quit on me or People, you know weren't there for me or people didn't show up So then I have to do that for myself and then that's some of that like me orientation But it's like yeah, we need to learn that that God is actually the one that will never quit on you There is security once you've placed your faith in Christ that God loves you. He wants you to experience his love You know, that's why he's giving you the Holy Spirit so you can understand the love of God Romans 5, you know, like and I think yeah That's helping women understand and connect with God personally is what's gonna fuel some of those convictions like we've been talking about Yeah, I think for sure maybe another thing that is Like exciting for women right now for like developing convictions is getting them in touch with like Stories of women across the world that are Committed to Christ. Did you guys read women who risk everyone in my in my Bible? So no Okay, okay, right. No Okay listeners everywhere Kira Navi women who risk you have to read I know and we're gonna have a follow-up later What you thought it's every single chapter is the story of a woman Coming to faith. See they're like Muslim background women all over the world and their stories of coming to faith and I found this is super random. I found this like book on Amazon a couple years ago just randomly I was like, why have I never heard of this book? I read it and then I told Everyone in my life like you have to read this book and then come to find out it had been at some booth at exercise The year before but no one no one I had never heard of it, huh? Yeah, it's so encouraging and I think it helps people have a vision for the role of women There's also like recently India Gospel League has had a bunch of women who are taking on these roles in Their communities because of different persecution that's happened against the men and I think getting women in touch with stories of other women doing really cool things or you think about Quarantine boom, you know the different different like stories of women That are super encouraging and putting people in touch with these stories. It's also gonna help Shape like, okay. It's not just about women in dwell. But like what could women accomplish? Yeah in other places. It's great You have to read women who risk. Okay, guys That's not enough Libby Libby that thing right now list it is on a list Frank so It'll blow your mind. All right, I promise No, I do think that that is really good. And and there are there are phenomenal examples right of like, yeah the The women in this book Corrie ten boom Johnny Erickson Tata, you know like these women who it's like man they have What examples they are? Yeah, you know, that's awesome If there is sort of this maybe like larger cultural narrative, you know, the church is bad for women Christianity is is is oppressive to women or something like that That may be dwell is in a position or maybe is Prime to sort of combat this no, this isn't true here. Here are these examples? although We've discussed a lot of like but we could there yeah, there's other things that we could excel still more in you know, and sort of furthering at this conversation and Yeah, other any other ideas Closing thoughts, I guess. Oh one really encouraging thing that Kind of came around last year maybe Was this idea of like if women are maybe? against coming to an actual church event for example Then we should do the work of meeting women with Scripture outside of that and also people are super into experiences and So having a spiritual experience is actually not that weird anymore. People are really interested in experiences and spirituality so we should use the power of the word in discussions with people outside of a actual church meeting And as they learn about Christ, maybe they'll want to come to a church meeting So some of my friends, I'm Abby reader and my ins keep did this like pop-up Discovery Bible study with these women who would have never come to a church and they Basically were like Just meeting and reading the Bible and the and the Word of God is speaking with authority in these women's lives and For one of them. It was like after receiving Christ meeting him in this time that then the Holy Spirit persuaded her You need community in your life And I'm like that's that's what we should empower women to do is like if they're not coming to you like What can you do to have these conversations? And help people see who Christ is yeah, and I think with that is the the power of people's stories like we should people are so about your authentic experience your You know those things then maybe this is the best time for people to share their testimonies really good with conviction Like yeah, are you using that? Do you know how to share your story? Mm-hmm what about your story is gonna be something that like women can really see like connect with and feel empowered by him and So I think there's things that our culture values namely experiences And authenticity that we should use to help people see like well Christ is something someone that I actually want Yeah myself to be able to lean into that. Let me tell you about my narrative. Let me tell you about what God's done Let me tell you about this experience. Yeah. Yeah, and again, I think that like counteracts The Rhetoric or experiences they're getting on social media, too Like I was just thinking about yeah, all of the is church bad for women I'm like, that's the rhetoric right the church hurt and purity culture hurts people and the church doesn't care about social justice issues Yeah, it's negative for women. I'm like to be able to share those positive experiences and Flip the rhetoric and the narrative. Yeah, that's good and the power of the word Listeners you don't know this but Kira actually brought two Bibles Have something to share I do Yeah, I love that you mentioned the word I was actually I think God kind of reminded me of this verse when I was praying this morning from 2nd Timothy 4 in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who will judge the living and the dead and in View of his appearing and his kingdom. I give you this charge preach the word Be prepared in season and out of season correct rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine instead. They will shut their own To suit their own desires. They will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths But you keep your head in all situations Endure hardship do the work of evangelists discharge all the duties of your ministry And I was just thinking I feel like that just perfectly sums up the past five or six years I think for me and the women in our Bible study where you know It was just after yeah just devastating Loss of women just turning away from Christ time after time after time again You know people that you care about that you invest in we kind of had to be like Are we gonna keep preaching the word? Are we or are we gonna be soft and just kind of tell people what they want to hear and because we're afraid That they might not like what God has to say or they might not like, you know What we're saying and I just I love this verse it's like yeah, that's what we got to do We have to put the word in front of people. We have to preach it We have to dedicate our whole energy to helping women understand the word helping women understand God connect with God and at some point We will be in season at some point Yeah, women are going to be re interested in Christianity and you know, and I think in a small scope We're seeing that in our home church right now, and it is awesome. It is so cool. It's cool Well, that's all for this episode of dwell on these things Thank you ladies for joining in on this conversation Thanks to everyone who? Gives a hoot and listens to this podcast We talked about a couple books that you will soon be able to find on overdrive women who risk and Jesus through the eyes of women coming soon If you're interested in hearing more dwell on these things podcasts You can go ahead and subscribe or follow the podcast for notifications about future episodes and for more information about dwell Community Church, you can find us on the internet at www.dwellcc.org