Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. Welcome to Dwell on These Things. I'm Pat Reeder, Director of Equipping here at Dwell Community Church. Joining me today is Brian Adams, our Director of Student Ministries. Welcome. Hey man, how you doing? I'm doing all right. So, you delivered a workshop at the Zenos Summer Institute almost exactly 10 years ago on the topic, Overloaded, Prioritizing Love in a Fast-Paced Culture. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, I can't believe it's been 10 years, but yeah. That is crazy. First of all, could you, this was, you know, this was been, this has been a popular, this is a popular breakout session, something that people listen to, and I wanted to just, first of all, like, can you give us a, you know, it's a great title, it's exciting, but can you offer us even just an initial summary or just some of the, even just some of the things that you covered in that? Yeah, so, XSI that year was on love as the mark of the Christian from the excellent book from Francis Schaeffer, and I remember, so, I had never taught at XSI before, and I was not asked to teach. I asked you if I could teach, and you graciously said yes, so. Maybe. The topic, you know, came to mind as something that's like, yeah, we're all very busy when you're doing Christian ministry. There's a lot going on, and yet, you think about like 1 Timothy 1 5, right? Like, the goal of our instruction is love. That's a verse that's really stuck with me over the years, and I'm someone who's like a high functioner, and I wouldn't mind if I could just go and accomplish tasks and do a little bit less relating, but that's not what God calls us to, and I think a lot of people can relate to that with me. Yeah. And so, my goal at the workshop is, it was a study of Luke 10, the end, with the Mary and Martha dynamic before Jesus, and the idea was, how do we get that focus that Mary had, where Jesus says you were doing, she's doing the more important part, that is sitting at his feet, listening to him. She's chosen the thing that won't be taken away from her, and meanwhile, Martha's, you know, busy doing something that's fine, you know, but she's not doing what's most important. So, you know, it's funny. I listened back to the workshop now, and I'm like, it really just ended up being like 35 practical tips about how to, like, prioritize love, which is not how I'd probably do it today, but yeah, the aim was really, it was talking about how do you get good time with God when you're really busy, how do you manage your stress and anxiety, how do you, how do you... Super practical. Very practical. How do you, like, handle your schedule, things like that, like, and that makes sense, especially for me 10 years ago of all times, like, that's where my head was at. Yeah. I was just sharing some personal convictions about it. Yeah, that's cool. Do you, so, are there any things, like, looking back on it, you know, since you just relistened to it, that you're like, I don't, I don't either, I don't know if I agree with that, or I would, I would maybe adapt or, like, slightly modify how I put things back then. Was there anything that stood out where you're like, oh, yeah, I don't know about that. One thing, one thing that did, I mean, what I would change for sure is I would make it more scriptural. Like, the workshop ended up being a little bit of scripture and a lot of practical content. I would, I would flip that if I could go back and do it again now. I think one thing is, like, I wasn't a parent yet, and I had a little section where I talked about, like, kind of getting time with God as a parent, as a mom, you know, like, just from what I'd heard from other people, and made that clear throughout the thing, but, like, now I have three kids, and it's like, okay, I, now I know, like, I could actually talk about, like, okay, what's it really like, you know, when you're in that, that grind of life, especially when your kids are really little. Like, I would very happily, like, go back and talk more about that and nuance that perspective a lot more. But overall, I mean, like, no, I mean, I think that the content was, like, it was cool, and I've heard that it was helpful, and I'm really glad to God that that's been the case so far, but I would love to go back at some point and just really do more of a scriptural, like, study on this and a little bit less of the, like, here's all the ideas to change your life. Yeah, that's cool. Actually, for, you know, maybe for our listeners' sake, can you give us an idea, how old are your kids right now? Yeah, so I've got a nearly six-year-old, a four-year-old, and a two-and-a-half-year-old. So we have three kids. They're all separated by 21 months a piece. So, yeah, we had a crazy few years. Yeah, yeah, I bet. Right, yeah, so, I mean, you know, you're sort of even still sort of in the little kid phase. You know, I feel like I'm, my youngest is five now, and I feel like we're, I mean, it's still, it's not easy. She's pretty wacky, but I feel like we're definitely kind of emerging from the craziest of the little kid, but, you know, you're definitely still in the thick of it, it sounds like. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. Things are, I mean, you get used to it. It's like, you know, yeah, to me it feels very normal, but yeah, it is definitely like, yeah, not on school full, none of them are in school full-time, like, we're, yeah, we're still doing a lot, for sure. Yeah, your first is, he's just in kindergarten, right? Yeah. Yeah, so, okay, right. So, yeah, and I think that's, that is a, that is a tough time, because, you know, I think for parents, for, I mean, anyone who's trying to do Christian ministry, like, you know, you and I are both on staff, but we also operate in a volunteer capacity in our home churches, and it's like, anyone that's trying to do serious Christian ministry, it's like, those years can be tough, you know? It's like, and it's not, not that we just need to, like, give up or whatever, but, you know, it looks different. You know, if I remember for myself, I was just thinking, reflecting on this recently, that, like, I've just now started to feel like my prayer life is kind of returning to what it was before I had kids. And obviously, like, I feel like I've connected with God, and in some ways, like, having a kid, even being tired, even being limited with time, even all that, like, in some ways, like, my connection with God is deeper and richer, you know, even in the little prayer time that I could get, but it's, it is, it's a, yeah. I mean, that, if you want to talk about busyness, you know, there is a certain kind of big, that's, there's a big hurdle there, and, you know, I've had two, I've got two hurdles, you know, that I've, like, you know, cleared. You've got three, some people are working on four, you know? So, yeah, I, one question I was curious about is, are there things, like, when it comes to, like, you know, part of what you already said is that there's, like, priority is a big part of this, you know? I was actually rereading Oswald Sanders' Spiritual Leadership today, and he has, I always remember, he has this great chapter on time, and one of the points he makes has a lot to do with just, like, everyone has the same amount of time, so a large part about this is, like, we have to make decisions about how we spend our time. So, you know, how, would you, like, you know, just drawing some on this, like, Mary Martha concept, and even just other more broad, like, what, what would you look for in terms of, like, here's where I would put my priorities, like, and how do I sort through this? Because there's a lot, like, real briefly before you get into that, like, I think there's a book that just came out, I haven't read it yet, so I'm gonna admit I'm just, like, kind of being a poser right now, but it's about, I think it's, this might be the one called Superbloom, but anyway, there's these, these, there's, like, a handful of books that have come out recently about how we're in an attention economy, and so there's this idea that, like, one of the biggest, if you could call it this, forms of capital is people's attention, and people are vying for that, and so we live, in light of the fact that we live in an attention economy, you know, oh, it's Siren's Call, that was the one I was thinking of, so there's these two books that came out around the same time, kind of similar themes, and, and I've read either of them, so again, double poser, right, yeah, so there's this idea that, like, you know, if 2016 was bad, 2026 is even worse, you know, and so, like, yeah, in light of that environment, in light of those, that kind of even greater, like, there's even more things competing for our time, you know, for our attention, or our attention, you know, what, yes, just speak to that, if you could, and, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, so finding ways to, like, prioritize what matters most, I mean, I think part of it is that you have to draw attention in your own mind to what, what actually matters most to you, like, attention is something that kind of, can kind of be taken, it can feel like it's being taken from you, just as you kind of swim through the streams of life, as you go between classes, or between your job, and you don't realize that there's, there's a lot of time we spend doing a lot of stuff we probably otherwise wouldn't want to, like, if we really paid attention to it. I remember once, for instance, I think this might actually been out of that same chapter from Sanders you mentioned, once I did a time study, or a time audit, where I actually annotated for an entire week how I spent my time every 15 minutes, and it was shocking how much time I spent doing things that I never would have guessed were that, were taking that much time, nor would I have ever have wanted, right, to spend hours on social media, or to spend hours just kind of sitting around not doing a whole lot, like, I have things I want to get done, and I feel really busy, but the fact is, I'm wasting a lot of time, and I think that's true of most of us, I know it's still true of me today, even though I've really tried to consolidate things a lot, is, I still waste a lot of time. There's a lot of time that can go by the wayside simply because you're not being intentional about how you use it, and so I just have found it to be very important to give my time my own, like, attention, to be aware of, like, what are my priorities, what matters most. One of the big emphases in the workshop was you have to make that time for God every day, like, it just has, it has to be a non-negotiable, it has to be a top priority no matter what, and so I think thinking through things like that, what are my top priorities, what matters most, thinking about when I'm in fellowship, and you think about, like, going to a Bible study and you hang out afterwards for an hour or two or three, that time can entirely go by without you serving a soul. You can sit around and and, you know, talk about the latest sports or the weather or whatever you're musing on lately instead of actually, like, when you go into those times, one thing I've learned being a parent is, like, I don't have, I can't hang out for hours on end anymore. I have an expiration at this point, I got a babysitter, I need to go to leave, so I need to make my two or three hours really count, and so I need to go initiate with people and talk to people, and I leave those meetings really refreshed and excited because I did what God told me to do, you know, I love people, and when I don't do that and I kind of just hang around until, you know, it's time to go home, meetings can sometimes feel like a little bit of a drag, you know, and so it's like my time didn't change, my stress level shouldn't necessarily have just changed because nothing really changed about my life besides the fact that I chose to listen to God and serve, and that changes your disposition, that changes your attitude because, like Jesus tells us, when you serve, you'll be truly happy. We need to take him up at what he says and promises like that. Yeah, man, you said a mouthful there. I'm gonna see if I can kind of capture a few of those. Yeah, so I found, you know, and it sounds like, you know, a little bit of what you're saying there, it's like having kids, at least in my life, almost sanitized my priorities and like what I was able to put my attention to into. It's like these things cannot occupy any more energy, you know. I still, frankly, you know, there's like, you know, some YouTube scrolling and, you know, other like social media garbage that I mess around with, but, you know, I've tried especially over the last so many years to like, you know, get on the like screen time limits, you know, those are really helpful. It's like, okay, like this is in its box, it's not gonna go, it's not gonna overflow the banks of what I've set for it. So, yeah, I mean, you know, that I really like your point too about using a gathering as well as possible. I think that that becomes necessary when you have kids, but I think also it's, frankly, it's very practical even before you have kids, you know. It's like you're, we've already decided to meet at this time. Like, so when people don't come or when they're kind of, they show up and just flop down and are like not thinking about anyone, it's like that's kind of a missed opportunity. And, you know, yeah, maybe when I was younger and could just be like, oh, I missed it, I'll just make it up by connecting with someone tomorrow. It's like, I can't do that anymore. Like, my schedule is too busy. And so, yeah, I've found a lot of that. I've had some similar insights over the last so many years with children and really just becoming busier in my professional life. Right, and it's like some people feel so anxious and stressed and it's not that that's without reason. A lot of us are very, very busy, but, you know, the concept of love therapy that just a lot of our problems in life will be solved if we simply choose to sacrificially love other people. Yeah. It's very true. Yeah. You know, and so it's like, yeah, regardless of your life situation, you know, kids or not, whatever, when we give attention to serving others in Christian fellowship, it dissipates a lot of the anxiety and stress that we feel. And that can be true. I remember that in college, just being like, man, like I got the essay to do that I'm really worried about. So, yeah, it's like I can even think of times when I was in college where you feel that pressure of like I got so many exams and papers and so on and so forth. And it can be easy to think like I need to forsake my time with God. I need to forsake my time in fellowship. And I can just remember so many times in my life praying in faith, you know, God, like I don't have a lot, but I want to come and give something to you and I want to come and serve and I'm not just gonna sit around all night not doing a thing, like I want to come and I want to serve and then I'm gonna go do what I need to do, but choosing like I'm still gonna give you something tonight and I'm just asking you to help me, you know, with what I need to get done, you know. And he always did. Like I just, I just still to this day, I'm constantly telling God like I don't know if I can get this all done, but I'm gonna trust you that I'm gonna do the things you call me to first. That's cool. And he always gives me what I need. That's great. Every time. I, yeah, actually you mentioned anxiety, and one of my absolute favorite passages is Matthew 6, 33, where he's like, seek first the kingdom and its righteousness and all these things will be added to you. And that was, that was kind of my like mantra when I was in grad school, you know. So I got my PhD and it was, there's constantly a like temptation to just sort of lay down fellowship, lay down service, and, you know, walk away from various responsibilities. And it was like, I took that very serious. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do the things I know that you're calling me to do. And every single time, like there was never a time where, you know, I mean, he's, it's kind of embarrassing actually, when it's kind of almost like a first world thing. The Lord made it so I could take my exam. He's literally talking to people who are worried about their next meal. He's like, don't worry about food, shelter, clothing. I'm like, we've got those in spades. We're kind of operating at that like top of the Maslow's hierarchy, like, if only I can get a good grade in school. Well, you know, regardless of what the problems are, and, you know, we are in the first world, and, you know, and jokes aside though, I felt like there was this very much this sense where like God was like, I want you to trust me and I'm gonna take care of the other stuff. And that became, I just, I never was let down when I followed through on that promise. And I think, yeah, so that's, I really, yeah, and that's like, that's sort of one of the things he like lists that, you know, at the end of his discussion on anxiety there in Matthew 6. And, you know, also, one of the things, you've kind of hinted at this, but one part of Scripture that I've always felt like is such a, like, important focal point, you could say, is the greatest commandment. And where he's like, you know, like, I think it's in Matthew 22, Matthew 22 is one of the places that's listed that, but, you know, he's quoting from Deuteronomy, and then also Leviticus, but he's saying, you know, the first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. You know, like, you said, and like, that's such an important, like, fixed point, you know, such an important, like, you know, thing to have. And, you know, as you put it, it's like, we have to get our time in Scripture, we have to get our time with God, and I just, you can't put it, I just can't, I just can't agree more. You know, it's like, it's like, not only has that been supremely important in my own life as a matter of experience, but it is in lockstep with Scripture, in lockstep with what Jesus says, you know, and fit, you know, linking that back up with the Mary versus Martha scenario, it's like, yeah, I mean, Mary, Martha was being helpful. Like, it's not like what she was doing was bad, like, you know, dealing drugs or something, you know, or like, you know, killing people. It's like, she's, like, getting ready for a party, but he was, Jesus was, like, coming to me, like, that's more important. And I think, you know, so that's been a huge part of my experience, is just how much that has fed me, how much that has helped me. But then, you know, like, as it concerned the specifics of your, you know, your talk, you know, has a lot to do with, like, loving others. That's the second commandment, you know, which, you know, he says is like it, and that is to love others as yourself. And I think that that, again, that links right up with the love therapy point you made. So we have these kind of important scriptural, you know, yeah, like, fixed points or scriptural anchors in the two greatest commandments, and how that, you know, if we can trust God to seek Him first, you know, and to love Him, pursue Him, and if we can trust God to get out there and to lay our lives down for other people, like, there's—it's so surprising how—it's embarrassing that it is surprising, frankly. But it is surprising, because we're, you know, untrusting people, that it goes great. You know, like, God uses that to lower our anxiety. Like, suddenly we're like, oh, what was I so worried about? I forget. You know, it's like—and I just had such a great time with that brother or sister over there. I was listening to what was going on with them, and I'm not just spiraling into my own negativity, you know, and you're drawing on those same resources from God. See, I really, like, I feel like that's always been a powerful pair to, like, come back to, and it sounds like you're really—it sounds like you're—even though you didn't use that language of the first and second commandment, or the greatest commandment, it's like, that's kind of on your mind. Do you agree with that? Definitely, yeah. Those concepts are core to Scripture. Like you said, you know, Jesus says they're the greatest commandments. And I definitely, yeah, I agree. I just think that you, like, look at people—sometimes I think people look at people who are really busy, and they're like, how is it that they accomplish so much? Like, I could never do that, because they're just such a high-functioning, like, you know, worker or whatever. And it's like, the answer at its root is not practical. It's not that they learned how to just master their schedule. It's that they trust God. They trust God enough to put themselves out there for Him, even when it's hard, and when it's scary, and when, like, you actually have to take risks that—I don't know if I'm gonna get it all done, but I do know what God tells me to do, and I'm gonna prioritize that over everything, and God always provides. That's a—I think that's a, you know, a powerful message, because I think a lot of people view someone like you as very active, you know, three kids, teaching a central teaching, coordinating a division, running marathons, you know. And, you know, this—it sounds like kind of what you're saying here is that, you know, trusting in God, obeying Him, responding to what He teaches us in Scripture, where it's like, yeah, the person who tries to lose his life for me will save it. Like, there's, like, kind of what you were saying earlier about, like, the best way—if you actually want true happiness, that's actually by, like, giving up of yourself. Like, this love therapy concept, and it's like—and that's what Jesus teaches. And so, you're saying, you know, it's like that, you know, people are kind of like, oh, where—does Brian have some, like, atomic habit stuff for me? And, you know, some of those habit things are good, but you're saying this is something that—this has to start in your heart. Yes, yeah. So, practical tips obviously have to be there. Like, there's a structural component to it, and that's something that, yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, there's only so much you can get done if you, for instance, wake up at 9 a.m. every day. You know, it's just the way that it is. But yeah, first and foremost, this is a spiritual discussion, and there's a spiritual dimension to this that if you don't have really your heart right with God on choosing to serve Him and prioritize Him, yeah, I mean, it's like a lot of the scripture you quoted, like the Matthew 633. I love the verse right after it, too. Don't worry about tomorrow. Today has enough trouble of its own, right? Just focus on that. You don't need to be so stressed out about tomorrow. Focus on serving God today. When you accept these scriptural principles as genuine facts that guide your life, what you find is that you're able to get it all done. And, of course, there are things that we got to say no to, and that's one of the other things that comes up in the workshop that I think God's given me deeper perspective on over the last decade, is like, yeah, you can't do everything, you know? Like, when I was in college, I used to get like six or, you know, so peer hangouts every week with different roommates and stuff, and it's like, I can't do that anymore, you know? Besides guys that I disciple, I don't get weekly time with anybody anymore. It's on less frequent bases these days and with less people, because it's just like, yeah, you have to make changes, you know? Like, that's obviously gonna be true in anyone's life. You gotta say no to some things in order to get the most important things done. It's back to the Mary Martha thing. It's like, yeah, some things are good, but some things are better, and you got to learn how to say yes to the best things first and foremost, so. Yeah, and there's always the kind of, it's a good analogy, but it can be a little hackneyed, but I'm okay with that, because it's a good illustration, but, you know, you're trying to fill a jar like you put the biggest stones in first, you know, and then you put in the next level. It's like, if you prioritize the most important things, then the other stuff can fill in, and, you know, and then you put the sand in last, but it's like the size of the importance goes in first, and that, like, enables you to actually get more in the jar than if you start with the sand. I don't even know if you'll get any stones in there, right? Yeah, so, yeah, I like that, and I think, you know, I think about even Jesus, you know, you mentioned, like, your time with people. Jesus had the inner three, you know, John, James, Peter, and then he had the twelve, right? And so there's, like, even Jesus made decisions about who he was gonna spend his time with, and that he, like, the inner three, as they're sometimes called, got more of Jesus, and the twelve got more than the other, you know, say the seven, you know, the seventy-two that he sends out later. It's like, there's kind of these, I don't know, like, like kind of circles that emanate out from this, like, but each of them got more of his time, and it seems like he, for various reasons, certain people got more attention. Yeah. And to say, I don't want to say for various reasons, as if there were no principles behind it, like, presumably he, the point is that there's not a ton of information in Scripture as to exactly why he decided these guys, not those guys, and we also happen to know that he included Judas in there, so it's like, whatever that was about. So, I mean, but I think we can reasonably guess that, like, there are gonna be people who will be, we spend extra time with them because maybe the Lord calls on us to, like, there are certain special relationships like you with your children, you know, certain family relationships are really crucial. And then you have, you've got people that you're like, I think that, you know, thinking about 2 Timothy 2 too, like, you want to look for trustworthy men, you know, trustworthy men and women, like, we're looking for people to multiply our efforts through, and if you're just getting stuck, you know, that's... So, I mean, there are principles that govern that. Yeah, I just, I don't know how much of that was explicit in the stories of the Gospels where it was like, well, you see, Peter was like this, and that was why he's the rock, and so you can, you know, we can guess, but for us, we have to see that there was a prioritization, and we have to use other biblical principles to make judgment calls about that, and, you know, Paul's instruction to Timothy there in 2 Timothy 2 too is as good as any. Definitely, absolutely. Yeah, it's like, it's funny how often if you just like, if you just pray about it, which is for some reason not the first thing that comes to mind in these discussions sometimes, God will make it really clear. Like, you know, one of my best friends moved to, you know, southern Florida or central Florida, whatever you want to call it, in a church plant a few years ago, and a friend of mine came to me and was like, hey, I think you need to establish some more peer relationships in your life for your own, you know, spiritual edification, and he was right. That was God speaking to me, and I prayed about it, and pretty immediately, God pointed me to a different guy, and we get regular time now, and it's been a really edifying relationship in my life. Yeah. It was not someone I would have immediately guessed, but he made it really clear, and I just think that if we just talk to God about it a little more, like, he wants to help, you know, like, he wants to give us insight on what we need, we need to cut certain things, add certain things, like, yeah, involve him, involve people too, since God speaks through the body of Christ, like, I think we'll get our answers pretty quickly in terms of what we need. Well, actually, you know, you mentioned prayer. I mean, that's—Jesus went up on the mountain, and it was after that that he picks the twelve. So it's like, there is this, you know, I think it's always so tricky because there are these, like, principles that we can extract from Scripture, and I think that if we ignore Scripture to, you know, in favor of just constantly just praying everything out, I think that would be not just unwise, but probably ungodly. It's like, he's like, I've given you a lot to work with here. Right. But there is this, like, dynamic aspect that has to be involved where, like, the Holy Spirit actually will reveal things to you, and it's like, you know, Jesus saw, like, through this prayer session, this overnight prayer session, he was like, these are the gonna—he's like, these are gonna be the twelve. Right. And I think we see, you know, and honestly, you see that also in Acts, I want to say, 13, where it's like the elders of the church at Antioch are praying, and it's like, set aside Paul and Barnabas. Right. And, you know, I mean, you can look back and maybe be like, oh, there's probably some good reasons why those guys would have been well-suited to that. Paul's a great, you know, brilliant man, brilliant mind, knows the Scripture, and also lived in Tarsus, you know, so he had, like, Gentile contacts. Right. But it was not that that led the thing, it was the God kind of pointing in a certain direction. Exactly. Yeah, and again, I don't want to make it sound too mystical, like, there are principles that govern these things, and we can learn those, but I think that if we lean only on principle and not also on, like, making sure we're in regular communion with God over these things, there could be, you know, there are surprises, things that look different. As you said, like, the guy that you're now connected with was not the first person you would have guessed. Right. Yeah, and it's important too, I think, just to understand that idea, right, that this is like, it's a spiritual thing first, it's just kind of what we keep coming back to, because, like, our lives also change, right? Like, we've kind of hinted at that throughout this discussion, or it's like, I was re-listening to the workshop, and I have this line in there where it's like, I'm not a morning person, the only way you'd catch me awake at 7 a.m. is if I stayed up all night. I wake up at, like, 5 every day now. You know, like, my life has completely changed. I actually am shocked to hear that I was not a morning person ever at this point in my life, because it's like, now I'm, you know. That's who, you're known for that. Right, it's like, that's the thing now, but here's what's, it's like, ultimately in someone's life situation, it's kind of irrelevant. Like, for me at that time in my life, I didn't need to be up that early. Sure. I had a lot more time in college and school, I don't need to wake up around kids to take care of, right, that I needed to be rested for or whatever. My priorities were a little different, but because those biblical principles were the guiding factor in life, it was like, in the situation I was in then, life's all about loving others, serving, you know, getting in there with God. Life has changed a lot over the last decade, but those principles have not. Sure. Right, and so even though things look different now in terms of how things are prioritized or what time we wake up or the different things that I, the hobbies that we have or whatever, the point is that if you hold fast to the convictions, God is good, He's worth serving, I'm gonna give Him my all no matter what situation I'm in, you're gonna be okay. Like, you're gonna be set and you will adapt because you've kept first things first. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's really crucial because maintaining those priorities as we go through life stages, yeah, like, staying up late or getting up early, those aren't really priorities. Those are things you can do to manage or to, like, use, like, basically, like, capture the priorities. Like, sometimes the priorities are captured by an early morning, sometimes they're staying up or whatever. Right. And I think, and the reason I think that's so important is, I mean, I've witnessed this, that people lose it through transitions. Yeah. And actually, this summer, when we were talking to, I think it was Michael Graham and some of these guys who work on, like, deconstruction and, like, de-churching, they talk a lot, they mentioned that, like, life transitions can be really detrimental. Sure. And we will be going through life changes, so, you know, we cannot prevent the, like, risk that will come from that. Mm-hmm. What we can prevent is, we can prevent, like, losing our way by holding our eyes fixed, right, on Jesus and, like, you know, and on what He teaches, you know. I think, again, I mean, He couldn't have been a lot, He couldn't have been any more clear than being, like, these are the greatest commandments. Right. You know, like, if you want to figure out how to live your life, here are two really strong ways to do it. Yes. And if you can hold those tight, and of course, like, loving others is complex, it's not just, like, I could see somebody being, like, oh, I'm just loving people and, like, having no strategy, having no, like, maybe not thinking about it very deeply, like, I think that's irresponsible, but in that fundamental way of laying our lives down for people, and even more than that, like, having God as the center of our lives, you know, loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and, like, you know, striving for that as well as we can, under grace, all that good stuff, like, these transitions will be more like road bumps rather than cliffs. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's just, like, yeah, how do we keep ourselves in tune? Like, how do we stay connected? And that's one reason why by staying close with friends in your life who can see what you're doing is so important, I think. Like, you know, like I said, I wouldn't recommend the, like, you know, I have 18 peer hangouts per week type thing, but having some people who really know you and can help you to, like, see, like, are you losing it, are you drifting a little bit? We were just talking about that in CT recently, about the concept from Hebrews 1 and 2 of drifting away, because we're not paying close attention to what Jesus says, like, we need people in our lives who are willing and able to speak to us with what we need to hear so that we can stay focused. Yeah, we can stay focused on what matters most. Yeah, and us, you know, we have, obviously, I think people in our lives can see things sometimes we can't see. Yeah. And we also need to share. Yeah. You know, I've seen some people who kind of went underground with, like, stuff they're wrestling with, and it costs them. You know, I mean, in one case I'm thinking of, seems like this guy's doing okay now, but I think that the road might have been a little smoother if it hadn't, if he hadn't been, you know, sort of secretive about that. And I think, so part of it is like, yeah, you start wrestling, you're confused about certain areas. Also, I think having flexibility on what this looks like, I mean, this comes back to the wineskin concept. Right. You know, thinking about what Jesus says, like, that, you know, he's talking really about the New Covenant and this various structures that could facilitate that, the Old Covenant being, so I mean, he has this very specific, when he's saying that, there is a proper interpretation that has to do with the covenants, the Old Covenant being kind of, like, dried out, or sorry, the Old Covenant being this wine and some of the things like these various rituals being the more, like, dried and cracked wineskins. Right. But there's a, I think, a helpful analogy slash application of that concept, which is when you're dealing with values, like core values, and then you have practical expressions of those values. Right. This is the values being the wine, which bubbles and expands because it's fermenting, and then you have these wineskins that need to flex. Yeah. You know, like, I found, like, my prayer life, I didn't get rid of my prayer life, but I changed how I was doing it in a way that made it possible for me to keep praying and be attentive to having wild little children in my household, you know, or being able to deal with COVID, you know, like, that was, like, a big disruptive event for lots of us. And so there's, you know, basically seeing the skin, the wineskin, as something that can change, whereas the wine, I need to be tight with God, cannot change. Right. And, you know, I've seen my wife, you know, has gotten these little, like, you know, devotionals that she really likes, and it's like, so she was, like, she knew that she needed to stay connected with God, but the way that she had been doing that before that didn't work with being a parent of little kids. Right. And so, and now, like, our kids are getting older, so, like, maybe the wineskins gonna look a little different, you know? Maybe we are gonna, like, stretch ourselves a little bit more, read something harder, pray longer than it was when my kid was—when we had a brand-newborn, you know, my daughter was just born and my son was, like, barely over three and was crazy. Right. Yeah, my prayer life, what I could do at that time was different. Yeah. But I was still gunning for that, and I feel like having that priority has really kept me steady and even grew me through that time, as I was understanding, whoa, like, God is a father, I'm a father. Yeah. And seeing my love for my kids and how God is that way, so there's this, you know, going through these transitions isn't just—they aren't just transitions. Yeah. In some sort of neutral way, but often each one of them teaches us new things about God. Right. And if we're keeping that, if we're adapting, if we're holding the value steady, holding the wine steady, letting those wineskins adapt, like, I think that's crucial. I agree. So, you know, I mean, what have, you know—and for your life, you know, you've gone through some transitions and you're—you taught on this, like, overloaded concept, and arguably, since you taught that, your life has gotten probably busier. Yeah. The culture has gotten louder, noisier. Right. What are things, like, are there ways that you've adapted, things that you used to do? So, you already mentioned, like, getting up early versus staying up late. Like, are there—what are other things that, for you, like, say, with getting private time with God, Scripture and prayer, are there things you've seen that have changed or, like, things you've adapted or—what does that look like for you? Yeah, sure. Like, on a practical level, obviously, yeah, a lot's changed. It's like, I'm up early instead of up late. Not to say I'm never up late. I'm still in the college ministry, and those guys can hang out late. That's right. I do what I can to keep up. But, yeah, there are dimensions of practical things that have changed. Again, I feel like at the core, it's like, for me, I try to wake up every day and think, like, how am I gonna—how am I gonna sacrifice today? Like, how am I gonna give myself up for people, whether that's my spouse, my kids, the people in my home church? And trying to look at life through that lens, I think, is the important thing to me. But as far as how it's looked practically, yeah, I mean, things have shifted. I think exercise has become a lot more important as I've gotten older, like, for being a hard worker, and maybe that's an ultra practical—yeah, but it is. I mean, like you mentioned, I've become a big runner in the last few years, and I think that that's—like, having a hobby, specifically having something where you can exercise, is really important for being able to, like, maintain your sanity. Totally. It's also an opportunity, like, when you have a hobby that's relational, you have an opportunity to share your faith, which is something that can go by the wayside as we age. So that's been something that's been important. Like you're in a running club, say? Yeah, yeah. So I spend a lot of time with people who are not Christians, and trying to witness them about my faith. I'm trying to, like, do things like witnessing or whatever, but getting out there and, like, doing, you know, stuff, like, as—I think especially as we age, it can be easy to become more and more of, like, a hermit who lives in your house with your, you know, two-and-a-half friends and your kids, and that's all you got. It's like, we can't—we can't do that, you know? Like, you gotta—but you have to be a little more intentional. You're not in college, you're not seeing people every day. Yeah, or meeting a new person— meeting, like, 30 new people every semester or something. Yeah, right. It's just like, that's just not a thing anymore, and so you have to adapt. And again, I'm like—I am thankful to God that for whatever reason, like, temperamentally, just the attitude I feel he's put in me is just like, you just gotta—how can you sacrifice today? That's what's important. And I think that the flip side of that that can be negative is I can get quite legalistic and accomplishment-focused, and that obviously is a problem that I have to deal with constantly. But I'm thankful for just that disposition of, I need to think about how I can get out there and serve today. And I think that's kept really saved me from some serious problems as I've aged in life. Yeah, I think having that core attitude of, like, sacrifice, of love, you know, I think remind—you know, it's actually, I think it was given in the exact same year, Gary DeLashma had a great teaching during that Institute where he talks about how our love input has to match our love output. It's like, you were talking about feeling legalistic and feeling, you know, like you're, like, pushing yourself maybe at times too far, and like, I think I really liked how he talked about how if we're receiving—if we want to go further in our sacrifice, we need to receive more from God. Yeah. And, you know, he kind of gave this sort of these quadrants that I thought were really illuminating. Like, one negative scenario is you're not receiving, but you're giving out. And it's like, that was really, you know, I think he called it, like, spiritual anorexia, because it's like, you're not—you're acting, but you don't have, like, you know, sadly—obviously anorexia is kind of a sad thing in another way because of the, like, eating disorders. But the point is, you're not receiving nutrients, and yet you're still acting, and that's very dangerous. And, you know, as we know, like, anorexia can actually kill you. Like, you're, you know, it's bad for your heart. And the other one was, like, you know, you have this sort of Dead Sea picture where it's like, you're receiving a lot in but never putting out. Yeah. And it's like, it's like the way he kind of had this, like, you know, linear picture where it's like, the best scenario is lots in, lots out. You know, you have, like, kind of a free—there's sort of this free movement from God to you to others. Right. And I think, yeah, I just—I remember thinking that teaching was really striking, and I think that's, like, kind of a powerful—a powerful reminder when we get stuck in those moments. Like, I know I need to live—I want to live my life for God. I want to give out for Him. I want to pour out for Him. But if we're not also receiving love from Him—you know, of course, that does take the form of receiving love from God in the form of literally getting out your Bible, getting into prayer, and having Him encourage you. But it's also, as you said, through good peer friendships and through, like, His—you know, He doesn't call it the body of Christ for nothing. Like, there's a sense in which our community is the expression of who God is. Right. You know, that He's using them to pour into us. And so, you can include that as well. Yeah. And I think we have to, like, sometimes check what our assumptions are about what it means to receive God's love, because there's right and wrong ways to understand that. Like, it's easy, for instance, to believe that if I'm adequately receiving God's love that I'm just never going to be tired or stressed. And being tired and being stressed are part of, I think, being a devoted Christian leader. Yeah. You know, Sanders has some good quotes on that that you just—he has this quote that sticks with me. He said, mediocrity is the result of never getting tired. Like, being mediocre is, like, my greatest fear, right? So I'm just like, all right, I need to be willing to be tired. I need to be willing for things to stress me out. That's part of—when you care about people, you're going to experience pain, and you're going to experience stress. And that doesn't mean that you're not receiving an adequate amount of God's love. Like, you very well might be, but your output has expanded to such a level that you're going to feel the pain of digging into so many people's lives and sometimes choosing to do things that is not in line with what God thinks, or you're sacrificing some of the sleep, and I'm not advocating for not getting enough sleep, but sometimes you got to make a—you got to get out there and serve, even though you're not going to get your eight hours. And that's just got to be a sacrifice you're willing to make, and you can still receive an adequate amount of God's love, even though you didn't get that more practical thing that you felt like you really needed. Yeah, and I think, too, also the sort of subjective sense of being tired, like, that's not always about, like—like, I see people who, like, never exercise and who sleep 10 hours a night and who eat junk food, and they're like, I'm tired, you know? So it's like, there's not—the feeling of being tired is not—doesn't always map onto, like, your objective health. Sure. And I think there are people—yeah, I mean, you're going to be tired if you're out there loving other people. There are going to be seasons where you're like, I'm worn out. And, you know, God will find time so you can rest. And one of my favorite passages on this is that Jesus, when they find—you know, it's like there's a sequence of kind of frustrating stuff happens. It's like, the disciples just get back from one of their missions, they hear about John the Baptist being beheaded, and then they go and they land—they're trying to get rest, and they land somewhere, and that's when the crowds show up, and he teaches them and heals them all day. And then he performs the miracle of feeding the 5,000. And so, you know, the disciples are like, dude, we left to rest. Why are you doing this? And it's like, so they're mad, but it's actually—the interesting thing is, after that, they do get rest. So it's not like it was—Jesus was like, you'll never rest. You just have to keep going forever. It's like, no, like, there is a time, but right now, there's an opportune situation here, and I'm going to take advantage of that. And so I think—anyway, I just totally agree with you, and it's like, there's good lessons on this. I actually think—I wonder if you could comment on that a little bit. Like, so, you know, Scripture had—you know, we have—there's a whole day devoted to rest, you know. What do you think healthy rest looks like? Well, not doing things that objectively, scientifically make you stressed, like seeing on your phone. Sometimes, you know, like you'll—and I've been this person. You'll talk to people and be like, all right, I got to go to bed. You know, it's 11. And what they mean is, I need to go home and scroll TikTok for an hour, and then I'll go to bed. Like, okay, so— That's bad for you. Right. That's kind of like—that's not rest, to sit and be relaxed. To be relaxed and to be rest or not—to have genuine rest are not necessarily the same thing. Like, I get a lot of rest out of exercise, right? Like, my body is refreshed by doing that. I think it can be—like, finding genuine rest can be kind of up to someone's personality, can be up to their temperament. Like, what do you enjoy, right? Like, obviously, objectively, there's rest found in the things we've already talked about—the time with God, the serving others. But adding on top of that, yeah, I mean, someone should—we should make sure that we put ourselves in situations where we experience refreshment. And like, for me— Friends. Time with friends. Yeah, time with friends is, like, huge. Like, for me, when I go on big vacations, sometimes I can get stressed out for a variety of different reasons, and I don't necessarily find those times always the most refreshing. That's funny. But— I agree with that. That's why I'm like—I'm totally done. Like, wow, I'm just like—I'm out in Florida, and I've been here for days, and I'm just, like, frazzled. Yes, right. Like, I love my routine, right? And I find a lot of enjoyment just in that. And for other people, they're not like that. Cool, right? Like, find something that genuinely refreshes your soul. When I spend time with my very close friends, and we can dig into each other's lives and talk about ministry, I come out of those times excited. When I can get out there and relate with my non-Christian friends and try to talk to them about Christ, I find that refreshing. You've got to find things that work for you, that actually help you and don't just further stress you out. So, you know, I don't know what it is for the given person. I do think there are elements that we probably should try to incorporate on a practical level. Like, seeing the sun is important. Physically exercising is important just for your brain. But, like, how you go about doing those things— A good diet, right? Like, all that stuff, all good. But how you go about doing that stuff, it's very personal. And God gives us a lot of creative freedom to figure out how we're going to do this. If we're, like, really stuck, obviously, it's like, yeah, go to a friend for help or just pick something up new. Like, I didn't—to be full disclosure, I didn't want to become a runner. I was not very interested in doing that again. That's something I did a lot in my youth. But it was just like, that was the idea, right? Like, it was just the, maybe this will help me overcome some bad habits. Give it a shot. Fell in love, right? So, it's just like, you've got to go out and try things. Find things that work and see what works for you. That's great. Yeah. I like how—I mean, the experimental aspect of what you're saying, I think, is really important. You know, I think there are kind of some broad categories that help. There are some harms. There are some, like, pluses and negatives, you know, helps and harms. Like, okay, spending time with God, prayer, time with good friends, these are, like, broadly helps. Harms, broadly, social media, you know, spending time with, you know, well, clearly things like pornography or, you know, or just constantly, like, vegging out with games or with, you know, it's like, okay, you play some games, that's cool. Put some boundaries around that. But it's like, there's some things on that harms list that are, like, not automatically bad, but if you do them constantly or you're seeking them in order to feel better, you probably will feel disappointed. Yes. Anyway, so there's kind of these broad—but within each of those, you're going to—there's going to be things that work better for you than they might for the next person. Yeah. I really like reading. There are some people who will read maybe a quarter as much as I do, but they feel refreshed for that amount. Right. I might need to read more to really, like, feel like I got something out of it. And again, as you put it, it's temperamental. Right. You know, like, I might need to eat certain things that other people can't eat. Like, there are people who—I have, like, an absurd amount of dairy. My daughter—and that feels good to me—my daughter can't have dairy, you know? And so, there's just—so, we have to, like, work around that. But there's kind of broad categories of, like, okay, yeah, have a healthy diet, exercise, spend time with God, et cetera, et cetera. Get off the news, get off social media, get—like, okay, yeah, I like reading the news. I'm not going to say don't do that, but man, when you're doom-scrolling, that's going to be bad. That's going to be unrestful. Totally. I was actually wondering, could you—we've been going for a while. I actually wondered, do you have any resources you might like to point people to about some of the concepts that you've been getting at here in this discussion? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I was thinking about that. I was thinking about, like, some chapters that I love on, like, hard work and having that, like, spiritual disposition that drives it. Like, I love chapter one of the book Normal Christian Worker, which is—I think it's out of print. Knee. Yeah, Watchman Knee. It's out of print. You've got to find someone with a knee copy these days. But chapter one's called Diligence. Excellent. That's, like, a top-tier reading on being a hard worker with a spiritual disposition. It's good. The Leader in Time chapter you mentioned, J. Oswald Sanders' Spiritual Leadership, is a must-read regularly. There's a great chapter called The Leader in Work in John White's book Excellence in Leadership. Cool. Is that the Nehemiah book? Yeah, all about Nehemiah's leadership. It's really, really good. So I think all those resources are great on hard work. I think the aforementioned Love the Mark of the Christian book, it's a very short, great read by Francis Schaeffer, is really, really good, just as love is the ultimate apologetic. It just puts it in a perspective that I think can be hard sometimes to hold. And Schaeffer just had such deep, like, love and compassion for people. He's a great resource in that specific area. So those are some of the things I think about. Like you mentioned, a lot of the teachings from that conference that you're really great at, like Gary's, there's a lot of great content out there on our Dwells app and website. I find myself usually when I'm running alone, I'm listening to teachings. That's awesome. There are so many excellent teachings out there that one pocket of the church has heard, but a bunch of the rest of us have not. It's so worth just continuing to dive in. Check them out. The things that I do in life facilitate being able to do that a lot, and maybe for someone else it's different. I don't do a lot of book reading at this stage in my life, but I do a lot of listening. We have so many resources here, man. Trying to dive into some of those and finding teachings that you love and going back to them. I'm trying to remember the chapter, but I think it's in Sanders Spiritual Clinic. Is that the one about tension? Yeah, there's one called Overcoming Tension and Strain. Is that the one where he talks about mediocrity, or is that in leadership? That's in leadership, but that chapter that you're mentioning is so good. Oh my God, it's so good. I still think of that analogy of the string, the stringed instrument. It has to be tuned. It has to be taught. You don't want it to be so tense or whatever, using the imagery of tension, that it's about to break. But in order for it to play music, it has to be tight. And if you loosen it, it's going to be – it's not going to – you don't want to listen to music from a cello or violin with all the strings relaxed. Totally. It'd sound terrible. It would not sound good. It would make any noise at all. It'd probably sound – yeah. That's a great chapter, too. And you say that's in Spiritual Clinic? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's good. That's cool. Well, why don't we start to wind things down? I just want to thank our listeners for joining us for Dwell on These Things. Brian, thanks for coming in and hanging out and talking about these things. For more resources like this, head over to dwellcc.org. And in particular, this teaching and many other pretty encouraging ones are in the Zenos Summer Institute 2016, Love the Mark of a Christian. I want to encourage you to check this out. Brian, why don't we both pray here before we sign off? Sure, of course. Lord, thank you that you've given us the ability to love other people and given us a place in your plan. Thank you that every life is a plan of yours and that you've put our steps out in front of us, God, as you say in Ephesians 2. I pray, God, that you could help us to take the things that you put in front of us and use them to serve you, not to serve ourselves. And thank you that as we trust you, that you do provide for our every need, that as we seek you first, you'll give us everything we need. So I praise you for all of that, God, and I pray for anyone listening to this who is feeling the stress and the anxiety, God, to please help them to experience your peace as they trust you. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Father, I agree with those prayers. Grateful that Brian took some time to chat with me and just get some resources out there for people to consider on these pretty important topics. We do live in an era where a lot is vying for our attention, and I think we do need to thoughtfully prioritize how we live. You know, Jesus, as Sanders points out, Jesus had the same number of hours in the day that we do, and he had to make very specific decisions. You know, he really ministered only to one very small nation during a very specific time in history. But you know, Lord, we know that you, from that small group, have impacted the very edges of the earth and so it shows, you know, just kind of in a nutshell shows the way that prioritizing the right things at the right time can really deliver abundant fruit. And that's the kind of, we want to be that kind of person. We want to come into your presence and hear you say, well done, good and faithful servant. So help us to be sensitized, help us to keep our eyes fixed on you as well as we're wrestling through these things, because we know that you will reveal to us what we need to hear and what we need to know as we seek you out and open ourselves to your instruction. Pray these things in your Son's name. Amen.