Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. All right, welcome back to Dwell on These Things. I'm your host for this episode, John Ross. I'm one of the elders here at Dwell, and with me today is Mike Sullivan, who is actually one of our long-standing brothers, and he's worn a lot of different hats in this church over the decades, and in addition to his current responsibilities as a sphere leader, he is actually up for eldership. Hi Mike, welcome. Hey everyone. So yeah, basically they gave me no direction except to tell people about you, and help people connect with you, and I actually think that that's a great task for today, because I love you, and I want other people to feel that too. I know that you've had relationships in various capacities with people throughout your tenure in Dwell. Do you mind just kind of like recapping, giving us like the fast-track retrospective on how you came to Dwell and got involved, and kind of like the steps to where you are now? Wow, yeah. Well, I came out in 1982. I came out to a house party on campus. We were dancing to Rock the Kasbah. Clash, awesome. I liked getting the clash on this podcast. Yeah, there was a girl that was coming out to this Bible study that I eventually went to. It was from England. Her parents actually saw the Beatles play in Liverpool, like small pub scene. I like that we're getting deep into rock history. That's a secondary goal established. Yeah, so I went to that party, met her, thought maybe I'll keep coming out. So we ended up dating, breaking up, but then I was really struck by the community and the Bible study I started going to up near Westerville. It was actually catty corner from Westerville South. So I started going there and moved past that relationship and really got into following God. Hanging out with Danny Walker, shout out to Danny. He had a huge, him and Cheryl had a huge impact on my life. And back then our church was, it was growing. Before I was leading churches up in Westerville, we're growing up to 70 kids every seven months or so and splitting. We did that like three times in a row. It was a total revival. So then after a couple of twists and turns, a couple of years later after that, I wound up leading a home church and have pretty much led home churches ever since in a variety of settings, starting out with mainly high school students. And then just kind of, we were always, my wife and I, Edith, were always kind of the vanguard, the oldest couple in the group. And so, yeah, I did that through the early 2000s, came up into the adult ministry, which is, as everybody knows, it's a challenging but cool time to learn how to do ministry a different way. And then I had another crazy turn in 2008, wound up getting involved working with low-income kids who were attending the Indianola Middle School across 19th Avenue from 4th Street. And that blew up after about a year and a half into a pretty sizable work with low-income kids from all over Columbus. Stayed with that. And during that whole stretch, I think all the way back in 98, Leffel called me and offered me a job as the study center director and a class teacher trainee. I was actually about to go get a PhD in math ed, and I had decided a week before Leffel called that I couldn't be a dad, lead a home church, and get a PhD, and that I wasn't going to do it. And so a week later, Leffel called and said, how about working for us? And so you came on, you were working at the study center. Yeah. So you came on staff and that's how you used it? That's how I came on staff in 98, yeah. Yeah, worked there, got involved in teaching, was asked when Leffel became an elder and started teaching CTs, I was asked to go ahead and run the equipping division. So I used to be Pat back in the day. And that was a good gig, really enjoyed it, really enjoyed kind of being part of the growth of the Summer Institute. And then Renegade, that urban ministry got so demanding in the mid-20 teens, I had to focus on it. So I asked to step down from the equipping division role and focused for a while on low-income kids and how to help them and all the different needs that they have. Yeah, so did that. And then toward the end of that run, I realized there was some interest in possibly having me teach CT. So I kept running Renegade, started teaching CT, but quit leading my high school group. And then I eventually, when I was asked to lead a sphere, completely transitioned to what I'm doing right now. So it's been... Sort of like you're like a utility knife, you're like a Leatherman's tool for the church. I guess, yeah. I mean, do you like that kind of work? Do you kind of like doing something, starting something, then kind of move into something new? Is that just like your personality, that you kind of vibe with that? I really like being in an unscripted environment and starting something new. I do. Like we just start, our group is planting a group out in Hilliard. It starts March 31st, actually, is going to be our first meeting. And Hilliard is a pretty underrepresented part of the city. We're going to start with a sizable group. And it fires my imagination to be in some uncharted territory. So yeah, I really do like to start things from scratch. So what do you like about it? Do you like the challenge, just the novelty? Do you feel like... And alongside that, another question I would have is, do you feel like you get a call late at night, the sky opens and God's like, go over here to start this new thing? Or is it kind of trial and error? Do you just get some leading and prayer, talking with people? I mean, how do these new ventures kind of start and what draws you to them? A lot of times, there's providence, I guess. Things fall into your lap. And in the middle of pondering it, you just start to realize there's a lot of potential here. And that starts getting your imagination going. Like we had this Bible study, the renegade when we started, it was really small. And it was subjective. But when we got up to five or six kids, I just thought about it. I thought part of it was we would drive out to pick these students up. And every time we'd go to these neighborhoods, we'd see another 20 kids milling around with nothing to do. And I just realized this population that we've tapped into is just super underserved. And they were very spiritually interested, the ones that we were reaching. And I realized this could be the beginning of something special. I think what I like about it, what I'm really drawn to about starting new things is it makes you think in a principled way about the Bible, because there aren't any rules to follow. So you're kind of tapping into why do we do what we do, and how would that apply here? And I think that's a healthy place to be. The other thing I like about it a lot is it feels like you're going to war. I look back at some of the friendships I built with the guys I served with and the women I served with in that stretch, and they're some of my closest friends. There's a depth of friendship that's formed. When you're doing meaningful ministry in a novel environment, that's kind of hard to duplicate, so I really like that too. Yeah, so you've been in adult ministry for going on 25 years? Since 96. Okay, so it's a little bit longer than that. Yeah, 96. Our group was called 20-something, which was, I gotta say, one of the all-time worst names a home church could... It was just a terrible name. It was really bad. I was ashamed. It should have been called Little Rock. That was what I was voting for, but I got voted down. And the dwell all-time list, it's not even cracking the top 20, so at least there's that. There's been way worse names. Maybe. I don't know. Now you've been leading a sphere, and you actually have all adult groups, right? You're the only sphere that I think is... When we talk about sphere, we're just talking about organic connections and families of home churches that have kind of planted and stayed together over the years. So you're working exclusively with adults, and you've actually been seeing some success in your adult sphere, which is... I don't know. In our neck of the woods with the sphere that me and Brett oversee, we've only been doing adult work for a lot less time than what you've been talking about. We still feel pretty new, but you're actually seeing some success. And I've watched you feel energized about what's going on in your adult groups. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the stuff that you're seeing there? Yeah. Well, one thing that's special about my situation is we have an extraordinary team of coaches. We do. Bev DeLashmute and Gary DeLashmute are helping, and so are Joe and Cindy Boddy, and we've got Brad DeFault and John Bucher, and we've got Teresa Lawless, who's kind of just helps us make sense of what we're looking at, and she's doing some good coaching. So some of it is just, gosh, God has sent some really good people my way to work with, and we've had other awesome coaches over the years as well. Honestly, I think I had the eye-opening moment when I got involved in leading an adult sphere. I was in my challenge group, and some of the guys listening to this might remember this, but we had a talk about planting, and I realized, no, I don't know if anybody in here believes in this. And these are guys that are... They love God. They have had, over the years, a pretty big impact on me, guys that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. So these aren't guys with attitudes. These dudes have been swinging the bat and cutting trees down for God, like powerhouses, but had lost that sense of believing that we can actually plant. And so that really... We can disciple to the point of raising up leaders. We can grow numerically and in quality. This is a viable goal for anybody in any life stage. And so maybe we do it differently, but multiplication at every level, not something we want to let go of. So that kind of sent me into some really careful thinking. How did we get here? What would it look like to get back to embracing planting as a goal? And so I don't know. I think that was a watershed moment for me, and I think it's helping as we start to kind of wake the sleeping potential of some of the most effective servants in our fellowship. Not that good work hasn't happened, but I think some of our best days are ahead of us. I think it is a magnetic, electrifying, compelling idea that God has... There's other... People do church different ways, and we have partnerships with churches who do things a little bit differently than us, but what God has called Dwell to do and to be, I find still very compelling. It's one of the things that drew me here. It's not just that I have a personal relationship with God. It's not just that I receive Christ, but obviously that's the foundation thing. That's what we're trying to bring to the world. But to be part of a self-replicating kind of underground grassroots movement where every member matters, and we're going to do high commitment fellowship, and we're going to live a lifestyle of sacrificial love that's purpose-driven, and we have really high reaching goals. I mean, that is so cool, and I think when we get that back, it is electrifying. It is very... That can spark things in people's hearts, and you're seeing some of that. I mean, people... You mentioned kind of the early stages of the Renaissance or whatever, the rediscovery or kind of the rebuy into that principle, but now you're actually seeing some fruit. I mean, you guys are growing numerically. Obviously, that's not just numbers in a crude sense, but that's souls being won and drawn into community. That's depth being fostered, and new groups are going to go out, which is actually pretty cool. Yeah, I'm grateful that somebody a long time ago gave me a shot at doing meaningful ministry. For me, a lot of the appeal of planting is as you plant, there's new opportunities to step up and to teach, to lead, to offer counsel or marriage support, and that makes equipping meaningful. That helps people just feel the dignity of using the gifts that they've been given. I'm grateful we're not in a spectator church. It doesn't mean it's easy, and it doesn't mean it's always gonna happen in every life situation. There are phases where all you can do is just keep the torch burning. But continuing to relate to difficult goals like planting under grace, I just think that's a healthy place to be. That's awesome. So let me ask you, let's track back here. I'm really thankful for your retrospective on kind of all the different hats that you've worn here at our church. So you came to Doral in 1982. Were you a believer before that, or did you receive Christ in this church? You know, I believe my next-door neighbor, my grandfather's next-door neighbor, was taking me out to church. And I know there's, you know, some people are like, was that a—if you become a Christian as a young kid, was that an authentic conversion? I think it varies based on the kid. When I was nine, I really got the fact that I was a sinner, called out to God to forgive me. But I came home because my grandfather lived in a different state. I came home after I professed to believe in Christ and accepted Christ, and I had no fellowship at all. So I bought a children's living Bible at Kmart and just started reading it. And I tried to confess every sin I ever committed every night. How'd that go? That's exhausting. Really, really bad. It was terrible. So I tried two years of basically living completely under law and gave up, and basically became an agnostic. I think around the time I started coming to dwell, I was reading Bertrand Russell's book, Why I'm Not a Christian. Wow. So I was pretty far away. But then I went to Woodland Altars. We had a retreat there in 82, in November of 82, and I took a long walk. It's a cold winter night by myself, and I told God. I basically re-accepted Christ all over again and told Him I wanted to follow Him. So yeah, I came around when a ton of people like me were coming out of unbelief into belief. Wow. All right, here's a deep question. Okay, I'm ready. So if you could tell your...now, if you could look back to yourself at receiving Christ at that Woodland Altars retreat with these deep life lessons that you've learned walking with God for this many years, what would you tell them? Ah, man, don't do squats with too much weight. I would definitely tell my...I blew my back out about a year after that, doing squats, trying to be stronger than I was. I think I'd probably not play a lot of tackle football that I played until I was 26 or 27, that I'm still in pain as a result of that. I think I would tell myself to really prioritize friendship building and enjoy people while I'm with them as much as possible. And you know, a lot of things I'd say too, you know, I think I've always loved to study the Word and teach the Word. I have no regrets about that. You know, I've always really valued just being in community and enjoying hanging out with people and learning from people. Definitely no regrets about that. So yeah, I don't know. No regrets about some of the friendships I wound up building. God, just because He's so loving, God has just put some amazing people in my life at the right time over the years. Yeah, that's been something I've been reflecting on. Just, you know, when God tells us in 1 Corinthians 12 that He arranges the pieces and parts of the body just as He pleases, that's an extension of His will, we know that the people around us are God's form, a manifestation of His love for us. And just that organization, like, you know, it seems kind of random, but we know that there's a spiritual foundation there that God has put these people, not only for us to show love to them and to exercise our gifts, like you mentioned earlier, in serving them and honoring them, but the presence of those people, even though they sometimes irritate us and, you know, whatever, that's a manifestation of God's love. The fact that we can even have friends at all, the fact that we can even connect with people in our home churches is pretty special. Yeah. I know when, you know, a lot of you know that my wife Edith passed away, and last year, last April, and John, when we worked together, we're in the same space in the office, and, you know, I feel like I look back at that stretch, and as far as people at work goes, you were really helpful. I mean, you were talking to me, we were hanging out. I think we went fishing a week or two after Edith passed. You watched me almost catch one of the biggest bass I've ever caught, but never did. This is not a fish story, because it's being corroborated by another fisherman. I'd say this is a seven plus pound bass that was at the boat, and just the line raked against the rough edge of the canoe. It was my fault. An uncaught fish never happened. We can't go back. I'm just saying, you were, John was great with me at the right time, and it's been that way. It's been a big theme, actually, a big thing. Well, I've really enjoyed getting to know you, like I said at the beginning, and you know, I just, I've really watched you kind of weather this suffering, and you know, I just feel, I have a lot of admiration for how you've, you know, just handled this last year with, you know, just being able to keep strong, and CT, and leadership, but not, you know, neglecting, obviously, your family members. You really, you know, done a good job reaching out to them, and processing just the loss of Edith, which I know was just, you know, earth shattering, I'm sure. And I just think that's really cool, and you know, I know there's people listening here who are, you know, figuring out who is this guy that we're talking to, and who's kind of a candidate for eldership, and you know, that's one of the great things that I think is, you know, exemplifies the character, and just the track record that we'd like to see in elders, you know, the fact that you are, you know, strong mentally, your life is well ordered, you are a caring, relational man who's, you know, very diplomatic, and yet strong, and principled. I think that, you know, you just have this knack, like you mentioned, we talked about, for, you know, just trying new things, and succeeding at a high level, and you have humility in discussions and debates that I really find, you know, attractive, and admirable. And yeah, so if you're reflecting on some of these, you know, what do we do? How am I going to vote at the servant team retreat, or something like that? I mean, you know, I can vouch for the fact that, you know, Mike has the character that we're looking for in eldership, that God looks for in this role, like as we see in 1st Timothy 3, and Titus 1, and elsewhere in Scripture, just with the ones we see the character of Jesus modeled in everyday life. And I think your, you know, your intrepid spirit and a lot of success that you've had also speaks to that too, because we want elders to not only be men or women of good character, but also, you know, have some skill, and gifting, and leadership, which you've demonstrated for many decades. So yeah, it's been really cool just developing a friendship together, and I was glad we got to do this. But as I said, I wasn't going to let you off the hook without a few favorites here, okay? So he was, the only questions that I prepared Mike for were some of these favorites. All right, all right. And this is important too. I don't know if it's going to sway my vote one way or the other, but let's hear. Favorite band? You're asking what my favorite composer is, right? I'm sure that's what you're thinking about. I'd have to say, well, in modern composers, Hans Zimmer's ability to translate a movie into music is unparalleled. Wow. So now, if we're going to go like, pure distilled rock. Yeah, let's just hear. ACDC for sure. Interesting. Back in Black. I mean, I think they're excellent. Punkier, I do like The Clash. That's clearly, yeah. I mean, they're very good. God used The Clash to bring you to dwell. Yeah. If it wasn't for combat rock, I don't know if I'd be here. Those are a couple of things. I'm not a super musically inclined guy, but when I study, I like a good Hans Zimmer score. Yeah. All right. Favorite movie? That scene with Rutger Hauer on the rooftop in the rain in Blade Runner. You ever seen that? Oh, yeah. Big time. That's a great movie scene. I'd say that's one of the best movie scenes of all time. Wow. That's a good movie. Best movie scene? I've never heard that. That's actually intriguing. Scene Blade Runner. What do you think of the rest of the movie? It's good. I like, who was it? Ridley Scott, right? He's the director. Very good cinematography. I just like the way he frames movies. Excellent. Excellent movie. Yeah. Okay. All right. You've been learning to cook. That's one of your hobbies that you've kind of picked up this year. What's your favorite thing to cook so far? Well, you know what? I just cooked a feta cheese pasta thing, and I got schooled by my daughters because they were like, it's way too sour. Yeah. And I guess what the way it was, I got cherry tomatoes as instructed, but the ones I got were a little underripe and a little over big. And so the whole thing was super tart. I had to literally mix in sugar just to kind of get through lunch. So I don't know, man, I'm a working pro. I'm committed to becoming a better cook. All right. Let me shift gears. What's one thing you'd love to master in the kitchen? What one dish do you wish you could cook perfect every time? I know this is kind of a strange thing. I would like to be able to make my own baklava, like really good. I love baklava. I like, especially when it's really done well, and I'd love to do, I'd love to figure out how to do that. Wow. And I've heard baking is like, that's like graduate level cooking, especially precise. I can't bake because you've got to follow a recipe. I can't do that. I need to be a little bit unhinged. I need to kind of like... You are a little unhinged. Yeah. Most, a lot of listeners are not going to be surprised I said that. Well, dude, it's been awesome getting to know you and just this year and then to kind of introduce maybe the audience to you. You wanted to just kind of, I know that this has been kind of a tough year and you wanted to just offer just maybe like a closing thought or two on that. Just, I mean, obviously, you know, this has shaped who you are and you've actually gotten some support from any of this passing. So I just wanted to open up the mic for you. Yeah. Thanks. Hey, I just wanted to speak directly to anybody that's out there listening. You know, when my wife passed away last April, before she passed, during her passing, and after, we received a lot of love and support from people I don't even know, or that maybe I haven't seen in 10 or 15 years. And I just got to say how grateful, not just I am, but me and our kids, super grateful for the love and support that you all sent our way. I can't imagine being in a better place to go through what we went through over this last year, continuing to go through, than right here among you guys in Dewell. So I just, to anybody who did anything to support us, or even not, I know a lot of people were really praying for us. Just thank you, not just for me, but from my whole family for everything that you guys have done for us. Yeah. Well, yeah, thanks for sharing that, Mike. And I know, like I said, it's just been really cool to see you stay strong in Christ, and obviously to see, you know, obviously it was difficult watching Edith pass, but you know, she's with the Lord now, and that's, you know, we take a lot of comfort in that, obviously. Well, there we have it. All right. So yeah, thanks for listening to this episode of Dewell on These Things. I'm your host for this episode, John Ross, again, signing off on behalf of me and Mike Sullivan. And if you'd like more episodes of this podcast, head to dwellcc.org.