Welcome to Dwell In These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. Okay, on this episode of Dwell On These Things, we are going to be talking to two faithful servants from Cincinnati. And they actually came from Dwell and then moved down to three home, four and a half, four and a half years ago. Wow, where's the time to go? So, Dwell is great. We love Dwell. But what about when God calls you elsewhere? So these guys having navigated this four and a half years ago, we're going to pick their brain. We want to hear what was the experience like. Yeah, what was it like with your respective families or like projected down the road? Families? How did you think through this? Your thought process sees what was difficult, what was surprising, what was helpful? And how did you know that God was sort of moving in this direction? So, we're thankful to have you guys, Katie and Kim. Thanks for coming on. Yeah, happy to be here. Awesome. Okay, so, I don't know, maybe one at a time, tell us your stories. Like, how did you wind up down here? Okay. Let's see. So, I am essentially from Cincinnati. I mean, I lived all over, but went to high school here, which if you're from Cincinnati, you know, that's the most important identifier. Wow, where you went to high school. Okay. Okay. So, I went to Ohio State, met Christ there, came a part of the church. Awesome. Never wanted to leave ever, never planned on it, thought mission stuff was cool, but not for me. And heard about this move, this plant down to Cincinnati, actually wasn't even listening to the presentation, but I had a friend text me and was like, are you listening to this presentation? Because you're from Cincinnati. I was like, oh, no, I'm not, but went back and listened to it. And something was compelling about it. As an option. And there's more to say there, but that was kind of how I got connected to the idea. Okay. So, you originally from Cincinnati, but wound up in Columbus because of school? Yep. Go back. So, Ohio State. Yeah. And that, but you weren't a believer. You became a Christian like in Columbus. Yeah. Yeah. So, I grew up in church, not, not in churches that explained the gospel in a way that made sense to me at least. But continued going to church once I got to Ohio State, felt very self-righteous and good about that on Sundays all dressed up, walking across an empty campus, but knew nothing about Christ. And so it took me maybe about a year till I realized I say I'm a Christian, but I don't even know if I believe in God and conveniently around that time, I had a friend that was in home churches. At dwell, God had put on her heart to reach out to some of us that were in the dorm. And that coincided with me checking things out and getting answers. And so came to Christ, middle of sophomore year. Okay. I've got you. Okay. So then you get sort of plugged into community at dwell. Yeah. And then a couple years down the road, there's sort of a crew thinking about moving down to Cincinnati. Yeah. And it's like, okay, then the ball gets rolling for you personally. Okay. Wow. Great. Okay. We can unpack more of that later. Kim, what about you? Tell us your story. Yeah. So, I grew up in a Christian home. This feels funny telling you because I've known you for so long tonight. Kim and I are old college roommates. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So grew up in a Christian home. I remember accepting Christ starting a relationship with God when I was, I want to say five years old, but similar to Katie, we just moved all over the place growing up. So lived in many different states and cities. And through that, just never stayed in a church for very long. So I think like it's just hard when you're a kid to be connected without a good youth group. And so we, my family and I, my parents went more. We started going less. And then over the years, especially by high school, it was just not even on my radar. So, so yeah, I stopped going myself wasn't interested. And then just really randomly. So I was in Portland, Oregon. And I had just graduated high school and throughout high school, I didn't know it at the time. But I was feeling just increasingly dissatisfied with my life and like there was something missing. And then my solution to that was party and have fun and actually not think about it. Probably relatable. So then fast forward a little bit, graduated high school and just got really overwhelmed with what the future held and decided to take a year off. And at the same time, my sister just had a really rough first year of college and she needed a year off as well. And then my aunt, who lived in Columbus, Ohio, asked if we would want to come live with her for a little bit. And so we said yes on a whim and moved in to live with her. And then she said the condition was that we had to go to church and I almost said no. I was like, well, okay, how bad could it really be? And then we went to her church and it was an adult group and I was bored out of my mind. Totally. And then kindly someone walked up to us and said, hey, you know, we do have a college group. And you're like, yes, let's do that. And that's where I met you. So, so yeah, we got connected to dwell, I guess, seen us at the time. And my sister and I started to go to Bible studies. And I was not very interested spiritually. I think it took a while for me to actually connect with it. And there was a lot of people kind of talking with me. And it just took some time. I think God patiently helped me connect the dots that the dissatisfaction that I had been feeling was actually answered through Christ. And I would say that first maybe six months of attending things is when it just really connected and it was I kind of decided that I've never really tried it anything in my life and that this was worth giving a shot to see if it really was true. And it was like night and day for me. So, yeah. And then as far as domestic church planting, that was really early on. So you, Abby, which I'm sure you know, know this, you were. So at the time there was a prayer meeting for domestic church planting and you right off the bat, like right after we moved here were like, why did you need to move to Columbus, Ohio to find a fellowship? Like, why are there not more churches reaching the youth in a compelling way? And I mean people in general, but I was young at the time or young at the time. And you're like, invited us to come to the prayer meeting. And I remember Keegan Hale presented on Boston and we just kind of prayed for that city and prayed for the opportunity. And so for me, honestly, right off the bat, I was on my radar and I felt really interested in that this was something down the road that I would be interested in, but also felt a clear answer at the time that I needed to kind of get equipped and grounded first in my relationship with God. But was really interested within the first year of kind of coming around. Yeah, it's a great story. Yeah. Okay, so both of you are transplants to Columbus first. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, how outrageous, you know, that's like, neither of you are sort of, even from the city, okay, God sort of pulls you into Columbus gets you plugged in the community, and then it's like, okay, let's head back out. Okay, so, Katie, walk me through a little bit more of like, yeah, what it was like for you to start considering like, okay, maybe it's time to leave Columbus, I guess. Yeah, I mean, it was, it definitely caught my attention that it, the, the move was happening to the city where I was from, you know, that in itself is like, oh, that's interesting that there is a movement happening there. But I don't know if I have a clear reason why it was so interesting to me off the bat other than the spirit because I was pretty confident that I was never going anywhere. This was like where I'm at the Lord. This was, you know, where my spiritual family was my best friends. I was close to home. I hate new things. I just want to be told what to do and do it just fine, not try anything new. But I mean, reflecting on it in the years leading up to when we started thinking about moving to Sensei, there were quite a few things. I think that God areas where I think there were quite a few areas where I had said not for me and then God had said, yeah, actually, why don't you try it. Starting in high school ministry never thought I would do that going on a missions trip, you know, meeting with certain people, different discipleship relationships and I ever thought I was interested in. So there was kind of a little rhythm, I guess I'd been in with God of him calling me two things that were uncomfortable and on my radar. So I think in hindsight, there was an aspect of that where I had seen God bring me to these things, do them and come out on the other side, like better for it. So that was probably part of what was compelling about it. Okay, and so for you, it sort of begins with Cincinnati. Like it's like, okay, yeah, because it's Cincinnati, it's sort of on your radar. Whereas like for Kim, you sort of had the bigger, like a bigger, I don't know, burden for like, oh, maybe domestic, you know, getting outside of Columbus is going to be in the cards for me, but not totally sure what's going to happen. And then, so then what? Well, you know, what's funny is for me, it was, oh, Cincinnati. Not anything against the city itself, just I thought Portland or, you know, somewhere that I was more connected to. And so that was actually a curveball. Okay. So I guess to back up a little, it had been many years. So maybe five-ish years, often on, people would talk to us about doing something, and then it would just fizzle. And people would be interested and then get a really, like, friends of ours that we had talked about having an interest in doing this with. And then they would get an answer from God actually now. And so for us, it was kind of this almost holding pattern in a way of, is this really something we're going to be called to? Is it not? But we stayed open to it. And by us, I mean, my husband and I. And then, Cincinnati came up, and my sister and brother-in-law were pretty committed to going. And so that really, you know, I got past my initial Cincinnati and felt like, you know, we should really consider this. This is the first time that there's more of an open door and actually movement in getting this going. And obviously, another, other things had happened, but this was the first one where we felt like we were in a spot that we could say yes to it. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. So what, I don't know, in terms of like, no, okay, we're committing, we're throwing in, like we're going to take the plunge. I don't know. How did you get there? Maybe not smoothly. So yeah, it was. So, okay, at the time that Cincinnati really came up as an option was right before COVID. And so it was, I had a one year old and then COVID happened and obviously everything just kind of stopped. That was just not a good time. And so that was another, is this really happening? Yes, it's not. What's going on? And then got pregnant with my second kid and talk started happening again. Like as, you know, we realized like, Oh, COVID is life goes on. Yeah. And then so that felt like it really changed things for us because we had a newborn and a toddler. And frankly, just fell overwhelmed and felt like just a lot of maybe self deprecating thoughts of how could we really do this? How effective could we be? We have a family with young kids. I feel like I'm barely, you know, able to lead a home church here. Yeah. Something new. And I think that the turning, maybe a few things, two things come to mind for turning points for us, which was prayer. So I think like Philippians four stuck in our minds. It was, I think both my husband and I noticed that like our anxiety is about the what ifs and the fears of just being able to do things. We're just very focused on ourselves. And I guess my husband also had felt a calling for domestic church planting. So I think it was really helpful for one to just be consistent in prayer and allow prayer to bring answers and not be led by the fears and what is truly possible with young children. Because as we know, like anything is possible, if it's backed by the Lord. And so that was really helpful and just kind of had to talk ourselves down of we're thinking about this all wrong. Like we're not considering where does God want us. It's like, but how could this even happen? Yeah. And so that was really helpful to kind of reframe our thinking and go back to it's been at that point over a decade of us feeling like this is in our future. Yeah. And so that was just grounding and helpful to go back to what's our burden. God is opening doors like he has him in the past. And kind of this general sense of this would just be both of us felt like it would just be a really missed opportunity for us. And I think that was just the spirit. Like obviously everyone wouldn't feel that way. But for us, there was just through prayer, this like sense that we both got that was this, this would be us saying no. And then the second thing that was really helpful was just counsel from friends. And I think that was incredibly helpful and untangling our confusing thoughts. And also, I think just a lot of Satan's involvement to and twisting the way we would think about it. And it was just really helpful to have like voices of reason in the midst of that. That we could talk to and ask to also commit to praying for us. Yeah. And so really I feel like yeah, prayer and counsel from friends were the really big ones. So when, as you and your husband were sort of thinking about this, were you guys always aligned or was it ever like, oh, we're not really on the same page about this? Yeah, we were not on the same page. We would flip flop. Okay. So hilariously, we, there was a, let's anyone interested in going to Cincinnati. Let's go visit Cincinnati and you can see the city. Katie and her husband were on that. We met there, I want to say. Yeah. Yeah. That was hilarious. Yeah. And anyway, so I had a terrible reflects newborn on that trip. So I think that that was like to, I left feeling like what a mess. Right. We can't do this. My daughter was just freaking out and screaming everywhere. Like my son was just who even knows like running into the streets. Like I don't even know. Like it's like, oh my gosh, we can't do this. And Alan left feeling that same way. So we were like aligned in that side. So just like what a mess. We can't do this. But then he started to actually feel really sure of it. And I was like, no, remember that experience. That was actually terrible. And so we, I would say, I don't know, maybe six months of our feelings with like flip-flop. Like he would be like, no, I feel really sure. And I'm like, and so I think that that's also what was really helpful was getting away from our feelings on it and more to what is true. Who do we know got to be like, where do we feel called? And then we also, I mean, Alan, my husband and I would talk about and just try to comprehend like is this God's will for our lives. And then we would feel like we walked away with different answers on that. And so finally, we like threw up a Hail Mary. It was just hard to make a decision and we were born world and all that. So we landed on God, if you don't give us a definitive note by August, we're going. Great. That was just a little silly, but also we just needed a deadline. Totally. Like that's where we landed. Okay. So we're flip-flopping. We feel one way or another. And it was in that time frame that both of us by the end of August felt like we would be saying no. Okay. If we, if we didn't say yes to this. Yeah. Okay. And Katie, you were married. I was. So walk us through. Yeah. What was the process like for you and your husband because you guys didn't have kids yet. So that's a little bit different. Okay. Yeah. We've only been married for a couple of years. I mean, there are in a lot of ways similarities other than maybe the difference coming into it. I mean, I remember that trip. Yeah. Talking to you and your sister and your husband and being like, Oh, when did you get interested in planning? You're like, Oh, 10 years ago. I was like, Oh, we're like 10 days ago. Yeah. First lesson of this felt completely insecure. Like we have no. Okay. Okay. But a lot of our process was similar. A lot of prayer. I was looking back at my old journals and every day is like, maybe this is for us. Maybe it is. Okay. Okay. A lot of back and forth. I was considering it and then we would flip prayer, giving it time. Even though I feel like it wasn't much time in comparison to the burden that you guys had, giving it time, getting a lot of counsel from people and a lot of counsel from people who felt very differently that we respected, that we're all very mature. But people that would tell us, I really think you should stay for these reasons. There were good reasons. And people who tell us, I really think you should go for these reasons for good reasons. And there was just a lot of weighing it out. And I think, yeah, partly, we felt similarly to Kim and Alan that this would be a missed opportunity if we didn't go and in part because we didn't have kids and we didn't have jobs that could move and this was a very, it was a flexible time in life. And so we just both kind of had the thought of, I think we would regret not doing this now and maybe we'll feel too rooted in some amount of years to uproot. And then, yeah, I mean, it was also confusing. People would ask you, do you feel called to do this and that felt like a very confusing term. It really is. Yes, I still don't know. Really? What it means, if I'm like, was I called? I don't know. I didn't hear anything. I don't know. Okay. So I, I still don't really know how to respond to that, but we felt willing and we felt like God had taught us so much that he would use us in some way, like between my husband and I, we had done ministry from with two-year-olds to adults and all the way in between, we were like, well, we could do it somewhere else, right? I mean, it just felt like God has done things in our life and why would he not do them somewhere else and why not? It was kind of our feeling. Yeah. Okay. Did you guys get like unanimous support? Like as you were sort of like in the pre moving down here phase, was it like, oh, it's like, yeah, like everyone's like, yes, do it. Or were there people that were like, no, I think this is a bad idea. Did you get like pushback? Not. Yeah. In our case, we didn't get, we didn't have anyone that said like, no, this is bad. So in that way, it didn't feel like, you know, we had people they respected being like, we're concerned about you or we don't think this is a good idea for you. But we definitely had people that we respected that were like, here are reasons why I think I might be better to stay. And I think those were valid and prayerful thoughts. So we didn't have like unanimous everyone we talked to was like, absolutely, you should go. But I think I felt comfort that, yeah, there wasn't anyone that was concerned about that. We're opposed to you going or something like that. Yeah, nothing like that. Nothing like that. Just other people that knew us that I think were also weighing out how it could go either way. Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't know if you had. No. We, yeah, ours was pretty unanimous, but also I think every team we had been on since we'd been married, we were like, this is something we're really interested in. And this is something that it was just always a part of the conversation. Yeah. It's just like on the radar. It was always on the radar. It wasn't something new that people in our lives were like, oh, okay, this is a new thing to consider. And so, yeah, I think that maybe even that's partially a difference is that it had been, yeah, over 10 years of working this out and talking with people about it, off and on. And it was just always a part of the conversation for us. Okay. Okay. So as I'm curious, like, as a parent, yeah, okay, so that's sort of one of the differences in like your two experiences as a parent, what was it like to sort of think through this? It's not, yeah, I got these two kids that are, I got to factor into this decision. Yeah. So on the one hand, it felt like one of the easiest times in their lives to go. So having, you know, they weren't in school yet, obviously, you know, what was she, it was her first birthday, the year when we moved. Okay. So, you know, a one-year-old and a three-year-old when we officially moved. And so in one sense, that was easier that they were so young and that they had, you know, friends, but whose memory is that good? No. You know, if they're not remembering those? Yeah, right? Mm-hmm. I know some people. So yeah, so that felt like this, I'm not, because I moved around so much growing up at much older ages and that was really hard for me. So that, I think that is also how a bit of how I processed it was, they're a lot younger and so they're not established in anything, they'll get to start school with a crew and all that. But then on the other hand, it was really hard to decide to move away, like, for that very same reason. Okay. That being someone who moved around my whole life coming to this church, I was just so excited. I mean, my husband and I were just so excited to raise our kids in such a vibrant community and to send them to school with other, like, minded families and kids and felt like, oh, man, that's going to be so good for our family and that was, I would say, for us, for me, at least, I think Alan maybe feels a little bit differently, but for me, that was really hard to weigh out and process and to feel like I was in a spot where I was willing to say just believe that if God's calling us here, he must have provision for that too, but that took some wrestling. I think that was a lot of the back and forth too, but will God provide that? Will my kids' spiritual lives just be tanked because they don't have this vibrant community and it was just, yeah, again, a lot of my feelings dictating that and so, so yeah, that was what was really hard for me about it. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it makes a lot of sense because, like, on the one hand, your kids are so young that that sort of is an advantage, like, okay, this maybe is a good time to sort of, yeah, uproot and yeah, yeah, the reality of, like, man, walking away from, yeah, this very established community in Columbus and it's a big cost. Yeah, it was. It was. And Katie, you guys didn't have kids yet. Correct. Okay, but was this, like, I don't know, in your brain, like, okay, what's it, what's it going to be? How do we make this decision knowing that they're going to clean this up? Yeah, you get my question. I do. I do need to restate it. No, make it messy. There, yeah, we have two kids now. We did not then. Okay. We knew we wanted to have family, didn't know when exactly, but there was a counting the cost of, we also hoped to raise our family in this church, you know, our best friends were there. We wanted to raise our families at the same time and make houses by each other and all the stuff. Right, right, right. And so that hadn't happened yet and so I think in a similar way it was counting the cost of if we go, then we are, like, that will not be happening, like that is a sacrifice. We will be giving that up to move down. So, yeah, that was, that was emotionally hard and still is challenging. Totally, your kids know. Three, she just had her third birthday yesterday. That feels wrong. And six months? She's three. She's three and loving it. Wow. Three and six months. Gotcha. Very cool. Okay. So then, how long was it between when you're first considering Cincinnati to actually, did you guys move down at the same time? No, pretty close. A few months apart. No, she says. You were November? November in January. Yeah, November in January. We kind of had a, our team had a staggered move, so no one moved at the exact same time. We all moved over the course. That makes sense, right? A couple months. Six months? No, it was just November to January. We were the last. Okay, whatever. This is irrelevant. I can't imagine the judges move before. It was like late October. Oh, wow. Okay. My memory's terrible. Yeah. Okay. Around the same time. Okay. Okay. So you moved down here around the same time. I'm sorry. So then, how, how long was your consideration period from like, okay, Cincinnati to like, and where boots on the ground? Like a fish on the ground. Yeah, I did on Cincinnati or first thinking, since I was thinking to boot the ground. Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, I guess mine's a little longer because of the COVID situation. Yeah. Okay. Because it got paused. Right. So, um, so technically 2020 to January of 2022. Okay. So two years, you could say with a like forced pause. Yeah. If you subtract the pause, how long was it? Um, do the mass maybe take a whole year off. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. Probably about a year. Yeah. So then it's about a year from like, should we do this? Like, we're down it. We're going on. We're selling our house or whatever. Like we're officially there. Yeah. Same. Six months, probably. Six months. Okay. Yeah. Because it was March or April that we, that we first heard about it. Okay. Then we were down here in November. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, some of the coolest surprises, the happiest surprises have been God's provisions as he is. What to do? He's provided so much for us. Um, the way that the people in this church love our kids, uh, is, is really exceptional. Um, I mean, you know, they're a loving group of people with a spirit, but I feel like they really go out of their way to invest in our kids' lives, to invest in ministry, to help us out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think the way that God has provided for friendships and some of the, is he like, stop crying. She's trying to cry right now. Hang on. Let's get it together. I've got her here. Um, yeah. You'd be the first to cry on a podcast. Yeah. No one's ever done this before. Not on this one. Oh, really? Oh boy. I don't think so. Who knows? Yeah. That's true. I don't think I know. People could be sobbing. Um, I have had some of the, um, hardest times of my life since we've been here and God has provided, uh, friends that are like family and really thankful for that. That's awesome. Yeah. And especially because it's like, okay, yeah, uprooting from this established community. Maybe what a big risk, you know, here's, you know, well, I don't know, 4,000 people or something like that. And like, okay, we're going to move into this much smaller community down here. Yeah. And so for the Lord to provide like, look, I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to give you good friends and you know, people that are going to be in your corner. Mm hmm. Similarly, uh, in a, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, but just the way in which the the team that we came with is just then become such good friends and you never know, like how will we click? What will this look like? Um, but truly it's just been such a provision in an area that I think was hardest to also say goodbye to of close friends, um, was to have such provision of friends that are family and that we're raising our kids together, that of course it's smaller, but that we are having a community to raise our, our raise our kids in, which has just been such a provision. Um, and a surprise in terms of just how it was answered and how seamless it has felt. And quickly, I would say, like maybe I was surprised by that, how quickly the friendships just formed. Almost like it's supernatural. Almost. Almost. It was. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Um, and then I think another one that surprised me was, so for our situation, we came down with a really small team, um, so there are eight of us and it was always on our radar of will more people come. Okay. I feel like we could use more workers and I had one idea. I think we all had maybe different ideas of how it could be answered. Uh-huh. And the, the surprising answer, uh, has been through kids coming to UC, uh, I just, not, not to be a part of it, but coming here for school that we're connected in Columbus and that has just been turned out to be such a provision for a ministry and just a really unique way. That's cool. That obviously might not happen being farther away from Columbus, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Um, walk us through a little bit what it, I don't know, impacts on your marriages. What was that like, pros, cons, I don't know. So for Alan and I, I think that over-archingly I would say it was really bonding for us. Mm-hmm. Uh, moving to a new city, having two young kids, I think it could have obviously gone awry. Yeah. I'm like, get away from me. He works from home. Oh, yeah. So it's like I see you every second of every day, uh, and, you know, I mean, that has what's challenges, um, but I would say over-archingly bonding for us and felt like we just really have become a team. We learned how to lean on each other, provide opportunities for each other. I think that, uh, and I guess this is like marriage related in a sense that, uh, it had to become a lot more functional because we didn't really have like people that could just watch our kids. So it had to be a lot of, hey, I need you to do this so that I can go do this ministry thing and vice versa. Yeah. And so in a, especially at first, I mean, it still happens, but, uh, in a setting where we really just had to trade off with each other a lot, we felt really united and connected. And that was really helpful. Um, but I also think that there was increased attack for us and a lot more of, um, just needing to, uh, just be willing to like speak into each other's lives and say the hard thing. Mm-hmm. And so not that it was just us doing that with each other, but again, being a smaller network of people, it's like, I think that our voices in each other's lives was kind of more necessary, not that it isn't ever, but you know, it just felt like we know each other really well and we need to push each other outward and yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you become a, um, like a ministry team in and of yourselves in kind of a different way. Yeah. And there was more opportunity for creativity and trying new things because we were, we were trying to start up new things. Mm-hmm. And so I think that it does require, like you're saying, Kim, just a lot more, um, attention on each other, prayer for each other, conversation with each other, but also learning how to draw other people into your marriage because you're not necessarily with the people that have known you for a decade, um, don't necessarily have people in your exact life stage. Yeah. I mean, when we moved down, there was no other couple, our age, married, with our kids, and, um, at that time. And so you have to, we had to be more initiative and, like, we need to seek out input. In our marriage, we need to be vulnerable, we need to work through stuff in the open because people aren't necessarily going to be, yeah, speaking into it or know what to say. Sure. Or it's like, you don't, we don't have five years of history with each other, like, so, yeah, it sort of forces you, we're going to have to be more initiative and intentional about this, like to bring people in and, you know, build these bonds and stuff. Yeah. Well, and I think a, a warning that we received early on in our marriage that really felt like it came just blaringly obvious when we moved here was just be weary of, like, turning into each other. And when you go somewhere new, it's just so easy to lean into isolation and let's have it be our thing. There's less accountability, there's less, you're just not around as much. It's not like you're going to three, four meetings a week. So like Katie was saying, there just needs to be, I think for us, we were just very, like, we're, we're committed to not doing that with each other, like we need to support and lean on each other. But like Katie was saying, we're, we're going to invest in friendships. We're not just each other's everything now. Even though we feel really comfortable with each other, we know that God sent us here with a team and that that is really important to invest in. And so yeah, I think that that was a really helpful warning in our premarital counseling. And another warning that really stuck with us was it's also really easy in marriage to allow Satan to like let you guys build on each other's frustrations with anyone else on the team. And so I think that that was another really helpful point was like praying against Satan and like us feeling like pitted against each other or against other couples. And like just essentially the marriage could be used really positively or we could kind of like be divisive and pull away from people. So it sounds like, yeah, it was helpful to have, it sounds like integrity was like a big piece. Like as a couple, we've got to have the integrity to sort of know our tendencies, you know, yeah, whether it's towards, you know, being inward and codependent or, you know, like being, see you later. Yeah. Totally. Exactly. But to have the integrity to be like, I sort of know my tendencies and I, again, I've got to be intentional about moving towards people, moving away from these tendencies that it would put you at much more risk if you maybe didn't have that integrity sort of going into it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. What would you guys say to someone who was considering, you know, leaving Columbus and going somewhere else for spiritual reasons? Yes. Well, okay. That was actually one of my thoughts was to be led by prayer and not what sounds exciting. So I guess that would be a spiritual component to it. But I would say be rooted in prayer, play on our name, but yeah, be rooted in prayer and don't allow like your emotions and your fears to take center stage and you're processing. And I think that that's done through prayer of like, it's supernatural. God provides peace and answers and wisdom and just insights in a way that he just doesn't elsewhere. And so I think that would be my number one suggestion is to pray and to talk to others and ask them to pray to you. I think that's smart because it's like, sometimes we can be deceived about our own motives. You know what I mean? Like, am I really intrigued by this idea, right? Because it's like, oh, it's a new place. It's, you know, like, I love the city or, you know, is it because no, I, the Lord's calling me here and I need to respond to that and yeah, I'm like an ocean sounded nice, but, but the Ohio River. I mean, that's what I had to work through myself, but yeah, almost the same. It is. Wow. Weirdly similar. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Prayer. Like we talked about get counsel for mature people that maybe we'll say things on all sides, not just what you want to hear. Yeah. I think you have to count the cost and, you know, count the cost of, of discipleship. Like this is, wherever you're going to serve the Lord, there will be sacrifice. I think like figuring out maybe what, what you will hold tightly is like what you need and what you'll have kind of a loose grip on. We had one picture going into it in our short six months of thinking about it, but we had one picture of like, we'll go when there's this many team members and if it's these people that we know and, and that wasn't what happened. And I'm glad that we held that loosely and hold that as like a non-negotiable. It has to look like this. Okay. But if you know that there's something that's pretty essential and for the health of your, you know, for your spiritual health, don't let that go. But yeah, prayer, counsel, figuring out, yeah, what's important to you and what you can be flexible about. Yeah. Okay. Were there things for you guys, Kim, that it was like sort of similarly, like I had these expectations. I thought it would be like this, oh, and actually like that, that's just not how things shook out. Um, kind of in terms of just initially with the team of thinking that we'll go when there's X number of people and I don't even remember a number, but it was, it was more than eight. Okay. And it was perhaps more kids than my sister and I. Okay. Um, and then that, like Katie was saying, just kept getting pushed to the side as we would pray that that maybe wasn't as necessary as we thought it was and that, um, God had worked for us to do and yeah, so, so that was a little bit different than what we originally imagined. And then as far as coming to Cincinnati, not, not really because I didn't know, it was so new and on charted and I, we knew we would be doing college ministry and that has stayed true. So I guess we didn't have a ton of changes there. Gotcha. What do you wish you had known before you left? Anything now looking back that you're like, hmm, wish I'd known this, that, um, at least for me that there will be a lot of homesickness, even though I'm an hour and a half down the road and back in my home kind of technically. And that probably depends on the person and maybe if you're someone that loves doing new things. Awesome. Um, but yeah, I mean, I remember going on a walk in the first week or two, I love going on walks, going on a walk in the first week or two of moving to our new house and I like forgot my house key and I couldn't, I had to get my GPS out on my phone, like figure out how to get home and I'm just crying on the sidewalk like, what happened, where am I? We reached out within the first month or two of, of being down here to some international missionaries that we knew and asked them for resources and they kind of had some helpful stuff for processing, um, but yeah, that took me by surprise a little bit. I knew it would be incredibly hard for me, just who I was as a person. I knew I would miss people a lot, um, but maybe knowing ahead of time that like that will happen that is part of the process or can be part of the process and like you'll get through it. Uh-huh. Yeah. Might have been helpful. Interesting. Did either of you ever experience any regret or like, oh, we, we made the wrong decision? I don't know if this was right. Did you have experiences like that? I would say just a little, uh-huh, but I think it was more, it was initially and it was more in the realm of my kids are psycho, I'm not sleeping, I'm tired, lugging them to you know, campus or whatever, I guess we were at Norwood and, um, it's so not necessarily regret regret, but just kind of in the back of my mind was, was this really the right choice? Uh-huh. Second guessing. Just second guessing. It's hard. Uh-huh. Um, and I think that that was answered in a lot of ways by what are, and I don't think this is that different than being in Columbus. Uh-huh. I think it was more just doing ministry with young kids was you got to get back to your convictions. Uh-huh. It's hard. Kids are just a, I don't want to say a barrier to ministry, but they add a level that's just different and there's like, yeah, you don't just walk out your door and go to a meeting. Yes. It's like an all-day planning event to get them there, at least at first. It's like, this nap and then this nap and then dinner and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotta get there for two hours early to put them down and I'll just sit there or whatever. Um, but yeah, so, and that was similar. So, so yeah, not necessarily regret per se, but it was definitely helpful to go back to what are our convictions. Why do we do this? Why do we want to, why do we make the sacrifice? Um, and yeah, so yeah, but maybe not regret per se. I don't know about you, Katie. No, I don't think we ever felt regret, um, but I agree a lot of times that we're hard, um, for us, for my husband and I, the ministry that we've been focused on has changed, like that we've been here. It's just been a lot of, it has not looked like what we thought it would when we moved down here. And so a lot of those transition points and deciding points, um, those were really challenging and it wasn't ever that we shouldn't be here, but it was just kind of, uh, confounding and stressful. Like we have to make another decision again or, um, this is just requiring, it wasn't like yeah, you know, we were following God's direction as we went and there was a lot of change. And so those periods were hard, but I, I agree with Kim, um, in, in any ministry you're doing for God, you have to expect that there's going to be ups and downs and changes and things you don't expect and, um, you got to, you got to get reconvinced than you're doing what God wants you to do. That's great. The homesickness of that kick in, like, immediately. Oh, yeah, probably the second day. I like my home. I like my people. I don't like to travel. Okay. And so much fun. Um, so yeah, that was a pretty, I should have expected it. Okay. Yeah. That was a pretty immediate, um, thing for me that, that ebbed and flowed and this very much feels like home now and feel very confident. This is where God wanted us. Um, but yeah, worked hard to figure out how to keep in contact with friends in Columbus and, um, kind of have that lifeline too in the transition. Yeah. What about you, a homesick? No. Um, well, a little in a different way. So, so I am someone who loves change and that. So it caught me by surprise. Uh, so for me, it was silly things. Like I would be driving and just cry because I didn't know where I was. And I was so sick of using Google maps every second of my life that I was, it felt ridiculous, but I would, I, I felt like I was crying every drive. I was upset at the son of Cincinnati because it was so always in my eyeballs. And it was an interesting problem to have. Okay. Um, you know what? I guess the point is, is that it came out kind of sideways for me. Um, that little things made me feel sad or like, I don't know where I am. I don't have any friends. I hate the sun. I hate the Cincinnati sun. It's different than Columbus. I swear it is science will back me, um, for sure. But, but yeah, so that came out a little sideways. And then I definitely did not sense it in my day in and day out life so much. But when I would go back to Columbus, I would say the first year, I would just leave feeling sad and I would feel really refreshed and excited when I was there. And then I would just feel really, really, I would feel really sad when I left. And my husband too, just like, we really miss them. People's lives just jump now in time. Yeah, we're not with them daily. And, uh, and it's still that way, but it's more, uh, I just have a different perspective now of Cincinnati does feel like home are we've made a lot of friends here. Our kids have friends and so now when we go to Columbus, I think because we're more established here that it feels more encouraging and I feel really excited to see what's happened there and not like I'm missing out as much. But I think getting more rooted here has helped seeing things just be different in other people's lives. And then staying like Katie staying connected to some close friends has really helped. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I love it. Well, I mean, I think you guys are heroes. I think it's awesome, you know, like it takes a lot of guts to uproot. Especially like, yeah, you're your family, your potential family. Try something new, go to a new place. And I think that dwell is so great. I'm thankful for dwell and other cities need, you know, like ethos is in communities like this, you know, need people to say yes. And I don't know, bring Bible studies and, you know, high commitment, friendship, sand, yeah, to other places. So I just think it's so takes a lot of guts. I think it's awesome. What if you're not the person that's considering going to a new place? What if it's your friends that are considering going? Like, what would you say to, I don't know, your friends that stayed behind, like what was helpful from them as you guys were leaving? Gosh, lots of things. Some of the most helpful things. Friends that were genuinely encouraging. And that doesn't mean that they were like, yeah, yay, bye. Like, I think, you know, it's also hard, those friendship changes, but we're really encouraging and supportive, even just in like reaffirming why we made the decision, times when it was hard, or being encouraging when we were facing different hurdles. That support was really great from people that I knew well, especially as we were getting to know people here, having prayer support. I mean, we, you know, we have a crew of people in Columbus and beyond that pray for us regularly, which is great. That's for sure necessary any kind of planting thing you're doing. But for me personally, like, I have three ladies, we're just on a text chain together. And it's just kind of like our prayer text chain and whenever any of us need something, whatever, we send it out, we pray for each other, we keep updated. And that has been a real lifeline to just know, yeah, that you've got that kind of like support in your pocket of people who are in the loop. And I've felt really supported. This is not always easy to do, but I have, yeah, some close friends that have tried really hard to like remember the names of people I'm reaching out to here or remember what part of town I'm living in. Just even those little things feel really loved by their attempts to try to like be invested and even know what's happening by name with people here. Yeah, that's awesome. I feel like you covered a lot there. Maybe one initially, it was really helpful to have people committed to kind of consistent phone calls or we were close enough where we could meet up halfway. So we would have every other week phone calls or once a month meetups, but at the same time, it was really helpful for both of us to let that go as time went on and to not cling too tightly because God had called us elsewhere. And so the friendship had to change. It wasn't going to be monthly meetups the rest of our lives. And that's that's sad, but it changes and it becomes prayer. And when we do get to see each other and there are obviously there are friends that we're more connected to and friends that now when we bump into each other, it's a great conversation. But I think that that was helpful was my really close friends being on the same page that this will need to change in order for you to fully invest where you are now and not just let me be your best friend, like we needed to really let the Cincinnati church and our friendships there build and carry a lot of that weight. So yeah, yeah, interesting. It's nuanced. Yeah, it is. I like that. Yeah, there's a tension there. Yeah. Or I think you just individually, yeah, you have to work through. Similarly, I think to a lot of other transitions, if you change home churches or, you know, if you moved as a kid or whatever, like they're just we can't always keep the same level of closeness with every friend our whole lives and that stinks. But yeah, it's kind of like this is where God has put me now. And so how is this going to evolve over time knowing that we'll party and happen forever. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Well, this has been awesome. I'm really glad you guys were willing to make time to come on and talk with us. I feel personally enriched and I anticipate that this is going to be helpful for a lot of people listening before we send you on your way. Maybe, I don't know, what are some aspects of God's character that you feel like you have a better understanding or better grasp of because of this move that maybe you didn't have beforehand. What comes to mind for me? So before we left, one of the couples we talked to were international missionaries and they were actually the last conversation we had that really convinced us like, okay, this is we're going for it. And one of the most compelling points was that the wife mentioned being on the missions field away from, you know, the community that we've been used to, which again, wonderful. But being on the missions field had presented the need and the opportunity to grow personally closer to God that an opportunity that being on the missions field had created a need and opportunity for her to go personally closer to God in a way that she doesn't think she would have if she had stayed. And I think that that is very true for me. And God changed my character a ton in Columbus and so many wonderful things. And being here and being stretched and not having some of the things I think maybe I had relied on as ways to define my identity. And yeah, just being a little bit unmoored forced me to go to God and he has changed my character a ton in the past four years and has ministered to me. And I think his comfort and his mercy when we don't know what the heck we're doing. Has become evident to me in a way that it would not if I'd stayed there. Yeah, that's awesome. So for me, I think that what really came forward in my mind was just that I so desire a life that is comfortable and I'm in my lane and I'm saying yes to God and, you know, in Columbus, by no means was it wrong. But coming here, I think I have just seen so clearly that how suffering is used being willing to take steps that are hard and challenging. Just knit you closer to God in a way that just wouldn't otherwise. And I guess I'll say that that could be true no matter where you are. But if God calls you to something, I feel like it should be a little hard and you see how just so clearly how he is the one who accomplishes all in his sovereignty, that it's not you. And that my I am better to quote Wicked. I was changed for good. No. Don't do it. I knew you would cut that. They're not going to cut it. I require it. I don't keep it in, but you've been changed for good. No, stop. No, but the. Yeah, the Christian life is not meant to be just easy, simple, do what's comfortable. And so for me specifically, the call was to Cincinnati to something that was really hard and difficult and had challenges and that he has just changed my character abundantly through seeing him and how only God can accomplish anything. And so I think that that has just been so clearly presented to me of being in a position of just utter dependence and so overwhelmed and there's so much work to do. And this is really hard, but if you put your eyes on Christ and on him and his work, like he will make the past clear. And so I think that that was a has just continued to be just a change in me and has altered in a deep way, how I see God and how I interact with him. Yeah, that's awesome. What a triumph. I love it. All right. Well, thanks, Katie, Kimmer, coming on here. That's it for this episode of dwell on these things. If you're interested in hearing more of these podcasts, go ahead and subscribe or you can find us on the Internet at dwell CC dot work.