Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. Welcome back to Dwell on These Things. Today we are talking to Marian Guzzo and Mary Beth Gladbone. We were just talking a lot about birds, and they're teaching me so much about birds, but that's actually not why we brought them on the podcast today. We're going to talk about their friendship, because you guys have been friends how long? Do you have like a year? We should have done the math before we came in. Well, we were 14, so in two years, it'll be 60 years. Yes. Yes. That's incredible. We were freshmen in high school. Okay. I remember just, we went to St. Augustine Academy in Lakewood, Ohio, and Mary Beth lived in Lakewood, and I lived back then. It was about a 45-minute drive to Lakewood, but we both went to this all-girls Catholic high school, and somehow, we just became friends. Okay, so now you live in Columbus, so sort of walk me through, I don't know, were friends all through high school? All through high school, and then freshman year of college, I went to Miami, and Marian went to Kent, and I stayed there for almost four years, graduated early, and Marian went to Kent, and then she went to a school in Boston for- A two-year school, liberal arts, yeah. But anyway, then Marian ended up back in Cleveland, and I ended up in Columbus because I was in love, and that's where my boyfriend was. And then we got married, and Marian was still in Cleveland, and Marian would come visit us, and we started going to Bible study, which is another real long story. And one weekend in particular, Marian's like, I don't have anything to do, can I come down or whatever? And we're like, yeah, but we're going to this conference. It was a Schaeffer conference. The How Shall We Then Live Schaeffer conference. I mean, Craig and I didn't even know what we were getting into, let alone bring somebody else, but she came, and- It was a series of movies, and Dennis and Gary would get up in between and give a little commentary on it. Was it at Riverside's auditorium? I want to say it was in the auditorium at Riverside Hospital. Yeah, isn't that crazy? What? Yes, it was crazy. That is crazy. Yes. And who sponsored it? That's a great question. I don't know. Gary would know, I'm sure. But so, Marian got to meet some of the people that we were meeting, and by this time, Craig and I were already believers, baby believers, brand new believers. And then, did Michael come down with you, too? Well, Michael was in Cincinnati, so he was coming up to Columbus, and I was coming down from Cleveland and spending the weekend. Another mutual friend of ours from Cleveland. Yeah. Yeah. And then, can you tell the rest of your story there? Well, then I went back to Cleveland still. I had a job there after that conference, and then it was that spring. We're talking 1977 at this point in time. That spring, there was a women's retreat at Delaware State Park, and Marybeth had asked me to come down for it, and our friend Michael's friend, Cindy, was coming up from Cincinnati. And Martha McCallum was teaching on Jesus being the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifice, and when she quoted John and said, behold, the Lamb of God, it all made sense to me. So, yeah. Wow. So, that was May of 77. Okay. So, then I went home and quit my job and told my parents I was moving to Columbus, packed up my little Honda, and I moved down here like in October. I remember when I got baptized at that point in time, I would say my testimony a little differently now, but I said I wasn't searching, but my friend Marybeth was, and I didn't realize I was searching, I guess. And then it was just a question of being together and being in the right place at the right time, I think. So, yeah. But then when it took, I mean, it took. You up and reroute your life, come down here to Columbus. Yeah. I did. That's awesome. Okay. So, then did things change? Like, what did you guys notice after like, okay, now we're sort of incorporating, I don't know, God or some of these concepts into our friendship? Well, you need to understand, first of all, Marybeth and Craig still lived way down in Orient, Ohio. On a farm. On a farm. So, they were like driving up commuters. That was far, far away back then. I don't even know where Orient is, I'm going to be honest. It's just south of Grove City. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Not that far. Yeah. Okay. Home churches didn't exist. Okay. We were doing small groups, right? We were one of the first small groups. At that point in time, it was the Fish House. They didn't own property. We didn't, you know, we were, any big meetings we had were at churches we were renting around town. And you guys used to come up for those, right? Yeah. And then we started somewhere around 19- That's where we need Joe. 79 or 80, yeah. We started small groups. Well, you weren't, we weren't small group together, though. We were in the first home church together. Okay. When home churches started. Okay. My mind is blown. Okay. So we were in home church together for a period of years, and then we planted you guys off. They raised us up, basically. Yeah. Marion and Joe raised me and Craig up. Yeah, that's what I've been in, 83, because I just had Carrie. And then you guys sent us off, and then- And then we weren't in home church together again until about 10 years ago. Wow. You just took 50 years off. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, and that is the amazing thing, if I can just say this, Abby. We weren't in home church together. We lived on opposite sides of town. She raised her kids in Westerville. We raised our kids in Dublin. And yet, we still- And there was a period when Marion was up in Cleveland again doing ministry. So we were separated during that time, too. How long were you up in Cleveland for? We were there for seven years. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So then, in this, I don't know, walk us through some of the bigger milestones then in this, you know, decades long friendship other than, I don't yet, I mean, there's moving away. What else? What were some of the big milestones? Big milestones. We talked about this a little bit. I think- When we were birding. Mm. Yes. Mm-hmm. That I think one of the biggest ones for both of us was that we were both here, and both obviously were walking, trying to follow Jesus when our parents were dying and when they died. So Marion's folks were still up in Cleveland. My folks were still up in Cleveland. And it was super difficult, especially both of our dads outlived our moms. Okay. And so we would go back and forth, not together, but, you know, she would go up to hang out with her dad on a given weekend. I would do that, too. And, yeah, that, I mean, again, we have sisters that we're close to. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Marion has six sisters. I just have two, but- Good gravy. But having a sister in the Lord walk through that with you and kind of go through that with you at the same time, that was an enormous- Be able to pray about it together. Enormous. Enormous. Enormous gift. So- That was huge for both of us. And that was in the late 90s, early 2000s. My dad died in 2000. My dad died in 2010. So your dad- That's when my dad died, too. My mom died in 2004. Yeah. My mom died in 2002. So you're at turn 50. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, for me, and it was for Mary Beth, too, I don't know that you were on the regular, but you would make food and take it up to your dad. And two of my sisters live in the Cleveland area, and one of them lives in Ypsilanti, Michigan. So between the four of us, we would take one week and a month and go and be with my dad. And we had somebody coming in during the week, and he lived in his own home and was able to get out. He just needed somebody there to take care of him, help him shower and give him food and stuff and take him for walks. So that was huge, going up there one week and a month. Because our kids were still living at home, we were going in opposite directions. Both of us had kids involved in sports and in fellowship. Yeah. And we were both separate ministries, separate home churches and all that. I actually missed, I remember I missed Emily's and TJ's baptism because it was my weekend to be with my dad. Yeah. Okay. So our lives weren't overlapping a lot in terms of our church life or whatever. But the friendship, you know, that was life-giving and sustaining during that time. Yeah, it's interesting. So it's sort of like, yeah, it's not like you're doing all of your communities, you know, like, well, we're just arm and arm in the same home church or something like that. But it's like, okay, you're moving through these life stages together. Yeah. And you get to walk through those together. And there's like, it sounds like, yeah, like pretty deep connection born of that. Like, even if it's like, well, we're not like, I don't know, in cell group together or something like that. Yeah. It's funny, when we were talking the other day, when we were birding, we were like, you know, how did we keep in touch? I remember when I lived in Boston, Marybeth drove all night long with somebody with a ride she got on the ride board. On Thanksgiving. On Thanksgiving that year. Yeah. Big deal. Came and spent the weekend with me in Boston. But we wrote a lot of letters. We were letter writers, especially Marybeth. We talked on the phone. When we could afford it. When we could afford it, because it was expensive. You wanted to call on Sunday, it was cheaper. You know, it was stuff like that. And then later on, when we were both living on either side of town, and our kids were still living at home and in school, we would meet once a week, like on Friday mornings, either at the coffee shop or in the nice weather, we would meet like at Antrim and just walk and talk and pray. And that's how we stayed connected. So OK, so even again, you know, ministry wise, you guys are in different places, home churches, stuff like that. But it's like, OK, we're going to prioritize getting time together, getting touch points. Yeah. Coffees, walks, things like that. I think about like, there have been some pivotal events in our lives, difficulties that we've gone through. And even though maybe we weren't, like I said, in the same home church or whatever, having this kind of relationship means you can fall back on that person like you can't on your other, even your pretty close friends in home church or whatever. And it's so stabilizing. I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, the loss of our parents is one thing, but, you know, stuff that's gone on in our families, you know, it's just been stabilizing and sustaining during those really hard times. I remember we also made you and Joe the executors of our will or you were going to get the kids if we died. Yeah. Yeah. And vice versa. Yeah. So that was a pretty big deal. Yeah. Were your, I think, I guess I'm curious, like, is it like, were your whole families like tied in together and your children were friends and your spouses were friends or it was like, no, it wasn't really like that. It was like, we just were friends. What you said, Joe and Craig have always been friendly and have a friendship, but it's not super close. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I think maybe some people, I don't know, have it in their head, like, well, if we can't sync up everything in our lives, I don't really know, you know, like what's the future of this relationship? That's true. And it's like, I don't think that it's that black and white. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think it has to be like that. That doesn't have to be a barrier. Yeah. You know. I think when that happens, it's pretty wonderful. Sure. But I don't know that that does happen that often. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if it does or not. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, we were there for each other at all of our kids' weddings and stuff like that. Showers and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Are there things that it's like we, I don't, we always maintain, like in our friendship, we know that we're going to do this, we're going to, I don't know, pray or like we read something together. We're going to, I don't know, are there like, these are our standards. Every year. I mean, we don't have anything written. You don't have a contract? Yes. Not yet. But every year at the end of the year, we talk about like, what if we're going to do a devotional and we both read the same one that year, you know, if it's Keller Psalms or whatever it is, we've tried a couple of different ones. We've done Keller Psalms a lot. We like it. And you know, we talk about that sometimes. Sometimes we always, I think whenever we're together, we pray together just for whatever is going on in our home church or in our personal lives or in our families, whatever. Yeah. And, and usually too, at the beginning of the year, along with our friend Bev, we usually talk about goals that we're going to set spiritually, individually, and then, you know, the three of us meet and, you know, what kind of, what kind of things we're going to do spiritually together. And I think that's been really great. It's been helpful. So it's like, you're not setting them together. Okay. But this is what I've been tuning on. Here's what I think. Maybe I want to think about or focus on, or I feel like God's sort of leading me in this direction this year and I'm sharing it with you guys. Yeah. And then we can kind of check, check back in with each other, which we have done a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. It's brilliant. Okay. So now you are back in home church together. Has that been, after spending, I don't know, yeah, decades sort of like in different places, what's that been like? It's been great. It's been great. Yeah. It's good. Good. No complaints. Okay. Moving on. Yeah. I, I think, I think it's, it's made me really appreciate Marian's gifting more, you know, and getting to kind of do this work together, it's, you know, especially at our advanced age and, and, you know, it's just been a real blessing to be able to do that. Yeah. I agree. It's good to be in the yoke together. We both have relationships from our past home churches and people that we're investing in, but we're able to even share that with each other and pray about those people together too. But to be able to serve together and pray together for the people in our home church and the women in our cell group is really something. So, and Mary Beth is a very gifted teacher, as anybody who's listening to this probably already knows. Not that good a storyteller, but. Okay. Okay. So let me ask you this. You've got all this history and, and now you, you are in home church together. Do people ever, I don't know, comment on like, or like feel butthurt? Like we can't, we'll never have what you have. You guys are so close and we're on the outside or, you know. No, I've, I've gotten some teasing about how much time we spend together. From your husband? No, from, I can't say cause, let's just say a previous co-leader that likes to tease a lot about how much time we spend together and stuff like that. But I think it's, it's in a spirit of, I can't relate to having that much, spend that much time with anybody. I don't even, he's like, I don't even spend that much time with my wife, you know, so. But no, we've had some people say that they hope that they have that at some point. That's what I was going to say. I hear that more, especially from some of the younger, well, they're middle-aged, but they're younger women in our home group are hoping that they have a, and a couple of them are doing pretty well in that regard, I think. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. It's good, you know, because sometimes, yeah, you think about long-term friendships or, you know, what's the line between like, well, now we're like enmeshed and we're codependent and everybody sort of feels on the outside and you got in groups and out groups. But that's not the picture that's being, you know, like, I don't think that's the dynamic that you guys have. So it's not like, well, you either have, you're like one best friend and everybody else is just other or, yeah, it's like, no, this is a gift and we are doing life together, but it brings people in. Yeah. I think, I mean, not to sound super spiritual or anything, but it's like, I think C.S. Lewis said something about like a really good friendship kind of delights in the friends that your friend has. Yeah. It like brings something additional to those other relationships instead of like trying to subtract and hoard it or whatever. And I feel like that's one thing that God's done in our friendship is we do support each other in these other relationships. We check in and how's it going and, you know, we pray for each other's other friends and so it's, you know, it's kind of outward focused, if you will, not like we sat down and decided to do that. It's just sort of what's happened. Interesting. If somebody was going to ask you like, okay, what's the, I don't know, how do you maintain a friendship for six decades? What would you suggest? I feel real strongly about this. So probably going to go on and on and on. Great. Worse than the birds. So I feel like, especially with the wineskins that we have in our particular church, and you had brought that up in one of the questions you asked us with, you know, where people kind of come together for a season and then in order to include other people, we oftentimes split away from people that we're connected with. And then we do that for a while and then it kind of repeats itself. That I just feel like these long lasting relationships are more important than maybe even in another setting. I don't know. And I feel like, you know, again, not to be overly dramatic, but like, you do what you know you have to do to take care of yourself. And if you really want to follow Christ for the long haul, especially let's say in an environment like ours, where like we come together and split and whatever. So long story, you want to continue to be following Christ and being fruitful for Him, then it's going to mean this is a super high priority, a super high priority. Like you know, and I guess for me, you know, I'd like to put a challenge out there because, you know, God calls us, especially if we're involved in serving and caring for other people, calls us to do that, calls us to take care of our immediate family, calls us to take care of our extended family. We have jobs and careers and, you know, lots of really important stuff. But you got to put these kind of friendships right up at that level if, in my humble opinion, if you want to be able to hang in there for the long haul. These are sustaining and life-giving, unlike any other kind of relationship. It's comparable to a marriage. So that's my spiel on that. And finding creative ways to make those connections, like during seasons that make it seem impossible. You know, I think back to COVID and when it was real crazy in COVID, you know, we would have phone conversations, we'd make sure we walk, we're walking together, whatever. You know, when you have little, little babies and all that, finding ways, I just think because it's so important to prioritize it. So do you have any thoughts on that, Mary? No, I agree with everything you said. And I think the creativity and finding the time to be intentional is good. I mean, there's certain things in life that you have to do. And some of it you can do together, you know, so yeah. I wonder if, yeah, it's like, right, that again, the nature of, you know, sort of the ethos here in Dwell, ideally, it's like, okay, we're in this home group for a season and it grows and we plant and, you know, so it just means you are sort of shuffling through relationships, you know, or people that you're getting more touch points with regularly. So I wonder if people, if you've got it in your head, like, well, you know, I don't know, we're just going to, whoever I'm in proximity wise, like whoever I'm closest to, and it's going to change and, but not being intentional about like, now, wait a second, you, you know, you could sort of, yeah, figure out like, are there, did, I don't know, maybe did God put somebody in my life that it's like, it's worth sort of prioritizing and protecting regardless of what happens. And I go through, you know, 10 plants in 10 years, but this, this relationship or these, you know, maybe probably a small group of relationships, like there's a commitment there regardless of what happens. Yeah. I just think it's really important. And instead of just thinking like, relationships are just something that happened to me. Yes. You know, like, well, I'm just close to whoever, or I'm not close to whoever. Or ending up, I don't know, kind of like in a self-protective posture where you're not going to let yourself get close because you know, you're going to be planting from someone and thinking that's the end of the relationship. So it, it takes intentionality and focus for sure. Yeah. What do you, okay, so as you, you guys are veterans, you've been running this race longer than me anyway. You can say it. We're old. I was not going to say that. It's all right. What would you say, I don't know, to people who are like, well, I just have a hard time maintaining friendships. How do you respond? I don't know. I would ask why? What are you saying exactly? Yeah, and what do you, what do you... Relationships is where the rubber meets the road spiritually in terms of our faith and our walks, they're our lifeline. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe getting them to even reflect a little bit on why they think that might be. And then asking somebody that maybe having them ask somebody that's close to them what they think about that and what they could do to move forward to, I don't know, strengthen and shore up a relationship or two so that it doesn't end up, you know, like dissolving or whatever. Yeah. But I think that's really worth a lot of thought, you know, because... There's got to be something underlying that. Yeah. I mean, I think it comes easier for some people for sure, you know, just the same as it comes easier for some people, I think, to meet a ton of people and have a million friends. I think it's easier for some people to have, you know, really close few friends. But yeah, I think thinking about that, I mean, even praying about it. I mean, I feel like, again, this is a provision God has for us. And so to miss out on that, I don't think God wants us to miss out on that. So thinking, thinking through asking people that are close to you or as close as you allow them to be, I don't know. Got you. Do you, like, as you look at younger generation, like, right, like I'm a millennial. As you look at younger generations, as you work with younger generations, I don't know, do you see like relational trends that you're like, oh, I think... A little bit. Is there something there? You guys should have a, I don't know, finger on this pulse or something. I mean, yeah, the one thing that I seem to notice that maybe people just are more bold about talking about it is sort of the slash and burn. Like if something goes wrong in the relationship, it's like, over, game over and moving on. And maybe that went on, you know, during our younger years more and people just didn't talk about it. I mean, people have always gotten hurt. Relationships have always fallen apart, of course. But there just seems to be this ethos out there. Like if you, I don't know, if you cross me X amount of times or whatever, it's game over. And that's one thing I'm sort of sensitive to. I don't know about other trends that are out there. But just like cutting people off, you're like, yeah, I disagree with that because it's biblical. Yeah. I do think, too, that there's a lot of self-focus and being consumed with self. And maybe that's tied into what you're sharing there, Maribeth, about not being able to extend people the benefit of the doubt or grace or forgiveness. Yeah. Interesting. Do you guys have conflict patches? We do. And usually it's when one of us is having a hard time. We don't fight and argue about things. But I know there was a period of time this winter where I was just like totally feeling sorry for myself. And it went on for a couple of weeks. And I was taking it out on various people, but Maribeth, for sure. And I finally had to come to the point of apologizing to her and saying, I'm sorry I've been the way I've been. Yeah. Yeah. It usually doesn't get anything worse than that, where we're judging each other a little bit more, being a little insensitive. That would be my side of it. I'd just be insensitive to something there and hurt Marion's feelings or whatever. But we've never had a major conflict where we cut each other out of our lives or anything for a period of time. I always like to talk about, Marion doesn't remember this, but Marion was like the first person to confront me about, let's just say, being kind of self-focused when I had my first baby. OK. And it was a real bold move on her part. And I was real, real, well, freaked out by it and hurt. But it was really the right thing to say, even though she can't remember it now. So it's not Marion's go-to is to have a kind of hard conversation. So I know, and I even knew back then that I needed to listen to this because, yeah, she doesn't like to wade in there. And yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful for that. It makes sense. It's meaningful. Because you have the history. OK. I know that, you know, this is really meaningful. So I'm going to listen even more, right? Because I know my friend. I know her tendencies. I know what this cost her to speak up. I was thinking about the issue of forbearance, too. And maybe that's what I see lacking some. That doesn't come naturally to anybody. But maybe there's a little less of that with this extreme self-focus now and stuff like that. But unbridled self-focus, let's say. But, you know, because we've known each other so long and because we even knew our family histories, it's like there's a level of understanding that really goes super deep. You know, like some of the wacky and not so cool things that I do, you know, it really kind of stems from how I was raised and stuff like that. And Marian witnessed it. Yeah. Yeah. And vice versa. And I think that it lends itself to being more forbearing. I don't know. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. It does. It's something I'm really grateful for. That was stuff that we had nothing to do with. It just has become very clear to us how God has been sovereign in this since even way before we were believers. So it's been cool to see that. It's made me real grateful. Yeah. It seems like that's like a level of depth. And yeah, maybe not everybody met when they were 14 years old. Fair. Right. But you know, to be close enough with your friends where it's like, right, I know your parents. I know some of your family dynamics. I know some of the background, you know, for good or for bad. And I get this. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. That it's not just like, well, again, we just happen to sort of be in the same circles and we like the same football teams or, you know, but it's like, no, we're going to go deeper than that. Yeah. So I could pick a part if I needed to, maybe some of these tendencies and like, well, isn't your mom kind of like that or, you know, things like that. Yeah. How meaningful. Because we're pretty different, too. Yeah. Temperamentally, we're way different. Gifting, we're way different. Say more. Different how? Miriam's real, real nice and everybody likes her a lot. Yeah, obviously. Everybody loves Mary Beth once they get to know her. A few people that know me. Yes. Don't like you. Yeah. They're like, I knew there was something off here. And I envy her teaching gift. Yeah. And her way with the word. Miriam's super warm and friendly and just super personable. People, like I said, she's, you know, in this stage of our life, we're meeting new people because we go to the same gyms and we do the same fitness classes. And Miriam has like met hundreds of people. They all love her. And yeah, I'm not that way. So that brings up another great thing about at this point in our lives and at this stage in our relationship, we finally have an opportunity to do some meaningful outreach together. I mean, we haven't led anybody to Christ yet through this or anything, but we are meeting people through our gym, two different gyms that we join and do some classes there and stuff and have had a couple of get togethers with them and have had some conversations. We're making progress with a couple of people and we can pray about those people together. It's been very exciting and very fulfilling. Yeah. Very gratifying. OK, so I love this. OK, so it's not just like, well, it's me and Mary Beth and our birds. Right. But it's like, man, there's still opportunities. There's still exciting ways for us to grow and say yes to God together. It's pretty surprising. It's just since we retired. Yeah, it's amazing. And I'm sorry, did you say that you go to multiple gyms? A couple of gyms. Yeah, our insurance pays for it. Good, great people. OK, kudos. That's amazing. Why? OK, so you're different. You have different giftings, different skill sets, different personalities. Why? If you had to guess, why did God put you together? I don't know. It's a great question. I think we need each other. Yeah, honestly, I think back to those really hard times. And we compliment each other. If it wasn't for Marian and Bev, I don't know. I don't know that I'd be. Still in the fight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think we both feel that way. Mary Beth's been an anchor for me when I've gone through really difficult times in my life. Very disappointing times in my walk. And I think that's why I'm still here. Yeah. But who would have known? You know, back in 1976, Marian was in my wedding along with several hundred other people. But. It's a different story. Yeah, way different story. But, you know, there was no way for us to know. Yeah. And then Mary Beth and Bev were both in mine in 79. And my sister, Marty. So. Yeah, you can't know. No, you can't. And here you are decades later. Yeah. That's pretty exciting. Yeah. Again, like I said at the beginning, it just makes my heart overflow with gratitude. Yeah. What a gift. It's a richness. It's a richness, you know. And I've taken to praying regularly for my kids and my grandkids along these lines. Mm hmm. Along with other things, but that they would continue to for my grandkids to find. And it was actually Danny Walker that prayed that way the first time for we have mutual grandkids. Mm hmm. That they would find people at a young age that they could become friends with, that would, you know, walk with the Lord all the days of their lives. And so I've taken to praying that same prayer for them, but for my my kids, that they would continue to prioritize those relationships that they already have. I just think it's it's it's a richness, you know. Money's OK or whatever. Sure. But this is a richness that you can't. It's true. Manufacture or earn. Mm hmm. So what about how do you sort of strike? But it's not like and these are only friends you, I assume, are able to still build new friendships. OK, so how do you strike that balance then between like, OK, it's not like, well, my tank is full and there's no room in my life for new friends. I've actually had that thought sometimes. You have? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, all the friends you're making. Holy moly, I'm shocked. It's just it. So what's the question now? The balance between maintaining this kind of close friendship and continuing to make new friends. Yeah, exactly. Well, this one is so solidified. Now, I don't mean taking it for granted or anything, but we have certain things in place that we know we're going to be together and be doing together. And, you know, and we're connecting pretty much on a daily basis, even if we're not seeing each other. We see each other usually four or five times a week. Good gravy. See what I'm saying? You kind of want to make a joke about it. A little bit. A little bit. I got him in my head. I'm going to keep it to myself. But then, you know, some of those other relationships are it's just normal. You know, it's incorporated into. I've never felt like it's a problem. Sometimes I have thought just that thought. I don't I don't need any more friends, but it's not like I've ever done anything. Yeah, yeah. I probably will never get to that point because I probably always could use a couple more friends. But Marion, on the other hand, like I said, she's a friend magnet. But it is interesting because it's like, OK, you have all this history. Yeah, six decades of friendship. I don't know. It would be easy to be like, yeah, you know, all there is to know about me. And yet at the same time, it's like but it's not. It's not like a closed system where it's like, well, and we just meet all of each other's needs. That's that's not right. Right. Yeah. So there's room for like, OK, we do. You know. Yeah. You got to branch out. Yeah. It's and it's not a closed system, especially since the goal of a lot of these other relationships is love. And so I'm curious and I really want to support the new friendships Marion's making at the gym and or growing her growing and her friendships with her sisters and vice versa. You see what I'm saying? So it's, again, not to sound super spiritual or whatever, it's but it's it's outward focus. So it's like it's definitely not a closed system. Yeah, definitely not. It's the opposite of that. Yeah. I think it would be terrible if it was a closed system. Totally. And I think that that's important, again, because it sort of cuts against the like, well, now I found my person. Yeah. And all my needs are met and I don't need any more friends. And you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. But we champion each other. Yeah. Right. Our outwardness. Yeah. It's a delicate balance. It is. It is. It's very cool. It's not black and white. I love that. Um, what else? Do you have any good stories about each other? Well, there was just one story. So I've always been kind of a rule follower and a good girl. And Marian. Oh, my God. Marian kind of has that persona, but on the side. She was secretly bad? She would have her, yeah, wild moments. So one time when we were in high school, um, I went out and was spending the night at her parents' place. They had a place on Lake Erie. And I don't know what we ended up telling your mom and dad we were doing. But we ended up on this boat in the middle of Lake Erie. Did you know those guys? I hope you knew them. I don't think so. It was a sailboat. It was a sailboat. And I believe there was alcohol involved. I don't remember that. Oh, yeah. It was like so dangerous and so wild. Yeah. And Marian was the instigator. Marian! I know. I'm bad. Well, then there was the time when we were in college. Oh, yeah. When I went down to visit Mary Beth and we hitchhiked down to- From Miami to Cincinnati. From Oxford, Ohio to Cincinnati. We hitchhiked and we took a ride in a pickup truck that had a big old gun rack with a big old rifle in it. And we had to stop at like a bar on the way down with these guys. They were much older than us. It was so dangerous again. Wow. I was kind of instigator that one because it was hippie-fied. Yeah, it was the hippie thing to do. You know, I hear these stories like my mom has like these hitchhiking stories and I'm like, what? I know. No, these are Netflix documentaries about very bad things happening. No, hitchhiking is definitely a thing of the past. Yeah, don't. And it wasn't, I mean, it was still a little dangerous, especially for women, but whatever. But it wasn't, you know, there wasn't a slasher in every car that was going to pick somebody up, you know. It was sort of a mode of transportation, I think. But again, not smart. Not smart for college-aged women to be doing that. We went to Cambodia together. Yeah. That was the scary thing. Oh, yeah. You were there. I was on that trip. Yes. We all went to Cambodia together. That was a good trip. That was a good trip. And I only went because Mary and Carrie talked me into going. Good. Yeah. Good decision. Yeah. I'm real glad we did it. Yeah. That was great. It was good. That's great. A lot of life lived together. Mm-hmm. In a roundabout way that when we went through difficult times and disappointments, dealing with family things, ministry things or whatever, that both of us, I think, went on record and said, we're not sure we'd still be here. Yeah. Right. And I think for me, taking it again a little more to a more intense level or whatever, I think being married and then having close friendships and the stabilizing effect they brought my life, I think those, for me, have been like the inside nugget of fellowship, sustaining fellowship. And I think for me, I think I tend to be kind of nutty that I would really not be like mentally like in a right and decent place if it wasn't for that provision from God, these kinds of super stabilizing close friendships. But again, that's being a little bit dramatic. But it is true because I have family members that I think have gone down that route and are isolated and are, you know, they're not, it's not a healthy place to be. So let me ask you this. Okay. So sometimes I think and I hear, you know, once people get married and they're like, well, my, you know, my spouse, my husband, my wife, they're my best friend. And everything else, all of the relationships, I don't know, are on like lower tiers or, you know. Yeah. How do you, what's the importance, I guess, of like friendships like this? Yeah. If you're married. I don't think, I think it's sharing the burden, quite honestly. It's, you know, not feeling like we have to put everything on one person. And relationally, I mean, there's things that Mary Beth can say to me in conflict, like if we're walking and I'm telling her about a conflict, she's going to say to me, okay, Marianne, you know, what, what do you think your part is? What do you think you, you know, God's laying on your heart? What do you need to do? How should you be responding? And I know you've done that, you know, many times. And vice versa. Yeah. So I don't know. I think if you have that kind of close friendship with your spouse, that's wonderful. But I don't know that, I don't know that God designed us for just one close relationship, that idea of someone completing me or whatever. I don't think that's a thing. And, you know, I think in most marriages, you know, you hit bumpy spots and you need help. And if it's just you and your spouse, and you don't have friends that you're close to that also care about your marriage, I think you're short-changing yourself. I mean, again, I think if you have that kind of friendship, it's great. But I think that to the point where it excludes these kind of close friendships with other people, I think in the end that you're going to be short-changed. So I think we need, you know, we need more than just that. And I don't think that, it's not that I tell Mary Beth things that I wouldn't tell my husband. But I can say things to Mary Beth that I might not be able to say to my husband to get to where I need to be. Do you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine it benefits your marriage, right? It absolutely does. To have these outside relationships, these long-term commitments, actually makes me a better spouse. I think both of our husbands are grateful for the other person in our lives. One year for Christmas, Craig gave me a date for Marian. He gave me a gift certificate to the book loft and a gift card to Lindsey's. Oh, Lindy's. Lindy's, yeah. Yeah, because he so values, he knows that we benefit as a couple by having that kind of close friendship. Yeah. That's a great story. Yeah. He's a good gift giver. All right, well that's a wrap for this episode of Dwell on These Things. Thanks guys, Marian, Mary Beth, for coming on. If you're interested in more information about Dwell Community Church, you can find us online at dwellcc.org and you can like and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to your podcast.