Welcome to Dwell In These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. Alright, well, on this episode, what we're actually talking about is God's calling. So, you know, the idea of like, what about those moments in your life when God sort of maybe put something on your heart so specifically that maybe you pack up your life and go somewhere else. So, our guests today are married couple John and Ruth. These guys served overseas. They're good friends of mine. And they've done just that, responded to God's calling in their life. Lived about 13 years outside the States. So, in this episode, what we're going to sort of discuss together is how does calling work? How do you know if it's real? What mistakes maybe do people make when they're responding to calling? And what do you do if you feel like God, okay, maybe is stirring something in me, but I don't know how to or I'm not ready to deal with it? And broadly, what we want to be able to talk about is, yeah, how do I respond to God's call in my life, regardless of the situation that you find yourself in? So, thanks for being here, guys. Let's start with, tell us the story of God's calling in your lives, specifically. This is the part where everyone just looks at each other awkwardly. Who's going to start talking first? Why don't you start, John? So, I grew up overseas. My dad was in the Air Force and was stationed in Germany. So, from about the ages of six to 12, I was, you know, a military brat. And I think it gave me kind of like a different perspective, maybe on the world and American culture. And just a different set of experiences from maybe your average kid growing up in the U.S. And I remember maybe probably around the age of 12, 13 feeling like, you know, it's a culture that's different from what I had been raised in, what I experienced, and wondered if like God would use that in the future for doing work overseas. And, you know, it's kind of a thought that starts out. My parents were, you know, believers, they're, you know, walking with God, praying for their kids that they would be involved in ministry and follow after him. And one of the things that kind of transpired is that that burden and you catch that vision from your family and seeing like this is an important thing. And, you know, they had pictures of, you know, missionaries up on their fridge, stuff like that. People that they were supporting and praying for. And so, you know, kind of like planted the seeds of, you know, this might be a cool thing to be able to do in the future as be somebody that works overseas. And I think that grew over the course of years. I went to a private Christian high school for my last couple years of high school up in New York and ended up being voted like most likely to become an overseas worker. And even when I came to Columbus, I had this idea of like, I'm probably not going to be in Columbus for very long. I'm just going to touch down here and then go overseas and get on with my life's work or something. Something, I don't know, glamorous and exciting and adventurous in my mind. But I think God had different plans. I came here and realized that I had a lot of maturing to do, a lot of growing. I just needed to grow up in my faith and there were people here that really had a vision for me and poured into me and loved me and gave me a vision for leading home church and being involved in ministry. And it was super cool. Like there were really fantastic opportunities here. I also got to do some short term trips. Got to go to Cuba, which was really cool. Got to go to Kyrgyzstan. You know, got to go to Ireland with Ruth after we were first married. You know, so there was a lot of like international touch points. And so it was kind of like there was this thing that was like in the back of your mind, but at the same time wanting to be very much engaged and involved here. So it's something that I've wanted to do for a pretty long time. Gotcha. And sort of slowly built over time. Interesting. I think for me, back when I was a freshman in high school, like probably the end of my freshman year, the high school ministry here. Took 50 high school students to Mexico. On a short term trip. That's insane. Yeah, it was a different time. They drove us there from a lot along the aisle. There was some pretty amazing workers in the high school ministry at that time. I mean, I think we were gone for two weeks. That was crazy. And that was a pretty life changing experience for me. And I think at that time, just being in a place where you're in another culture, you're experiencing, you know, a different kind of way of living. You know, you're sleeping on the floor in some church and you're like, not really enjoying all the luxuries that you're used to. And you're actually seeing what people's lives are like elsewhere. But you're also seeing people there. Meet Jesus. And I think at that time, I was like, this is what I want to do. This is what I think God wants for me. So I think by the time John and I were dating, I'm pretty sure we both talked about missions on our first date. Oh, yeah. Not like together, but that was something we had both really. I had also been on one of the short term trips to Cambodia by that time. So we both had just in getting to know one another, just sharing about how these experiences with cross cultural exposure had really changed us. So I think from the beginning, we knew that was what we wanted. We both felt drawn to it. That was clear. And obviously after we got married early on in our marriage, it was something that we talked about doing one day. And I was on staff here before we moved overseas. And, you know, we as an employee, you would always every year fill out self evaluation. I'm assuming they, you know, we still do this. And part one of the questions on those self evaluations. Was like, where do you see yourself here? Like in the future, what role and. I would always say, you know, I'm so grateful. For the role that God has me in. And but I see myself doing overseas ministry one day. And I remember Dennis doing my review one year with me and got to that question. And he was like, well, maybe you're called. Maybe you're not. And I mean, I would be like, yeah, you're right. And it was something that like, even though I knew I felt a draw to it. There was definitely a period of waiting to be like, okay, is God actually asking me to do this? Yeah, right. Is this something that's actually asking us to do? Yeah, right. Interesting. Okay. So it's like, for both of you as you sort of think back through your personal histories, okay, this desire is built. You have these experiences and you're like, oh, I want more of this. Like I would be into like, if this was in God's plan for me, like I'm into that. Are there other things outside of like, I don't know those specific experiences that maybe now looking back? You're like, oh, I can see that God was maybe sort of preparing me actually for responding to this specific call in my life. For responding to the call to go. Yeah, specifically. I mean, I think that there was a process that was going on where it's kind of like, you know, you had a burden. There were opportunities to take steps of faith and move out of your comfort zone and go to different places. Getting an opportunity to disciple people that were from other countries. Building close relationships with those guys. I think to like, part of it is like, you know, you play the role that God has given you in that moment. So, you know, supporting missionaries that are overseas already or, you know, contributing to global partner funds and things like that. It's like, okay, I want to pray for people who want to support people. But I think to like, part of it was like, as small doors were opened, you know, following up on the opportunities to do that, right? We are our first exposure to Southeast Asia was that while we were in Northern Ireland, we met some people that were working over there. And it was really just a really short crossover, like just a space of a couple hours and in one conversation, you know, it was one of those things like, staying at somebody's house on the way to the airport, sleeping on their floor. Somebody else was staying at their house, you know, while they were on a long layover on the way back to the U.S. and just started talking to them and asking them, you know, what is Southeast Asia like? And they're like, you should come visit. And it's like, you know, our paths cross over for two hours. You have a conversation. Someone's like, you should think about this. You know, the invitation gets made and we're like thinking about it. And it's like, that would be really interesting to like lead a short-term team to Southeast Asia. What if that actually happened? Or if we actually did that? And, you know, Ruth was like, yes, let's see if we can hold this together. And we did, and we got the lead a short-term team over to Southeast Asia. It was fantastic experience. And at the end of it, we're like, this is really awesome what God is doing here. And we're happy to support this in whatever way we can. But, you know, if we ever went overseas, we'd love to go to a place like this. But we didn't think of that particular moment. Sure. This is God calling us to like move overseas. But it was like, we're understanding what the field is like. We're understanding what God is doing. And we're trying to find out how we can support this and how we can be engaged in it. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. So it sounds like you both sort of have these individual burdens or visions, desires for like, I would like to do this and I sort of hope that God calls me in this direction. But not totally sure. But then as sort of, maybe this is a door and maybe it will open. I'm going to go through it and sort of see what happens. You know, you have these like chance encounters and then these opportunities like, well, why don't you, you know, go on this trip or lead this team? So it's like, okay, I'm just going to keep going through these doors until one of them closes. Is it kind of like that? Yeah. I mean, I think for. For me, it was more about like. What's, what's God's timing here? Right. And so we had bit, we had a lot of short term trip there. To Southeast Asia, and we had really enjoyed it. And we, like John said, we came back and we were like, yeah, we could live here. We could do this as much as you can say that after being somewhere for two weeks. Right. You know, and we, we got back and we kept serving in the roles. God had us in. And then I think it was in 2009. Maybe I don't quote me on that year. Several years later, the church decided they wanted to send to that field again. And this, of course, was very intriguing to us. That, in one case, you know, on one level that felt like a really big open door. Yeah, right. That this place we had been that we loved and that we, you know, we had been supporting people there. We were involved with advocacy for that field. Since being there. They wanted to send there and we were like, this is really interesting. But at that same time, we were pretty invested here. Yeah. And I had a lot of responsibility. Say what it was. Say it out loud. I was leading a sphere. And actually at the time that they. At the time that they were announcing that they wanted to send there. I think I, I was a new elder or they had perhaps just nominated me. It was one of those. And so it was confusing for John and I, because on one level, it was like. We have been praying at this point for, for years about where would God want to send us. And the one field that we're interested in going to has, well, not the only field, but this field that we've said we're interested in going there has been opened up and they want to send. But why would God. Ask me to play this other role at the same time. And actually, I think when they initially put the call out. Maybe it was like not. Yeah, I can't remember the timing of it all. But we just were like, cool, we'll just chill. And if God wants to like. I think our sense was if God wants us to go, he's going to make it really clear to us. And actually, okay, messing up the story. It's all coming back. I think at that time, we were like, it must not be the time to go. We are happy to support whoever maybe we're meant to be supporters. Like we had thought we would go there one day, maybe as a possibility, but God's asked me to serve in this other way right now. So this is what we should do. But then over the next maybe year or two, because I was sitting in these elders meetings and stuff, I just kept being at these meetings and they're like, no one is replied. No one wants to go. Kind of weird. Normally people reply like, you know, normally we're turning. We're like, have all these people that have applied and no one was interested. And I hadn't. We hadn't really shared with other people a lot. I mean, I think, you know, it wasn't a mystery to people that we were interested in missions, but specifically about our desire to do this. A couple of friends asked me about it and I just, I gave that reply. Like it seems like this is where God has us right now. We have a lot more responsibilities. And so. I remember. John and I going back and forth about it and like, is this what? Like we, okay, we're just, we're just going to focus on what God has us doing here right now. We have these responsibilities. And even. Actually being on an elders retreat and hearing. Scott Arnold share about how he felt called to the ministry that he's been involved in the West side and with YFC. And just hearing a couple other stories of how God had called people. And I remember I came home and John and I went out to dinner and I just felt like God is going to tell us if he wants us to go. We are seeking him out. He, we want what he wants. He is going to make it really clear to us if that's what he wants us to do. And I think at that time, we kind of came up with. Basically. Some, some things we would like to see happen. If. If we were to go. And, um, and kind of left it at that and just prayed. And I don't remember how much time passed. But. It was a lot. I mean, it could have been a year. I know I can't remember, but. I don't think it was. Yeah, my time, my time, my dates on all this are messed up because I think it was. 2009, not when they put out the call. It was 2009 when. Some of those things had happened. And I went and I. I think I talked to Dennis about it first before I talked to anybody else about it. And he was like, you should share this with the elders that you guys want to do this. It's an input. Yeah. And, um, that's kind of how we were like, we think God is calling us. Mm hmm. And over. Cause cause then I think that wasn't three or 2009 because it was three years before we. Got to the field. And over those three years, there was a lot. Of trying to discern. Is this what God wants? Right. Um, but I think God made it clear to us over time that it was. So I do think this was a very long process. From us as teenagers feeling led this way. Uh huh. To. As young adults, young married couple thinking this is what God wants. To actually decide like, is it this the place? Is this the time? I mean, I think from the time they put out the call, probably till we ended up on the field. I, I bet that was about five years. Yeah. I think it was about five years total before we actually ended up on the field. Well, and it's interesting because it's not like you guys are just like sitting around, just waiting for God to like give you direction. You know, like living in a vacuum where you were doing nothing. Your life is rolling. You know, it's like, oh, you have jobs and, you know, you're starting to have a family and. You have these like specific roles. Okay. I think God has like placed me in this position at this time. Right? Like I, I work for the church. I'm leading home church, et cetera, et cetera. And so then. In that chaos to sort of try to figure out, wait, but does God have like something. Specific maybe that he's calling me to. That it's, yeah, again, it doesn't happen just like in a vacuum. Like why I was doing nothing with my life. And then he called me to do this extraordinary thing. Okay. So here's my question. If someone's trying to like. Yeah, like grapple this out. I don't know. Like how would you advise someone to think through is God calling me somewhere specific. While also, yeah, living their life and being faithful in the place that they've been placed. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great thing. Each person has to like wrestle that through. Internally. And I think also in community, right? You've got surrounded by all these people. That love you and know you and are involved in your life. And you want those guys to be able to have a voice as you're trying to pray and think about. Is this crazy thing, something that God wants me to do? Or am I just kind of coming up with this on my own and having like other people that know you and have known you for a long time and can kind of speak into that becomes really, really important, right? In our circumstance, like, you know, we were leading the college group and it was like so much fun. Like we had, you know, it was an absolute blast. You're like seeing people come to the Lord. You're seeing like people move into leadership roles. You see people maturing and start to like pour their lives into other people. And you're like, this is just really fun. This is an exciting time. We love what we're doing. We love the people we're leading with. Like this is really, really cool. And like started to like you get this feeling of like we would be crazy to like leave what we're doing. Because this is significant. It's dynamic. It's exciting. Like God is blessing what we're doing right here. Like we should just stick with this. But there was always like, I think this like feeling in the back of your mind of like, I need to keep thinking about and praying about like is God calling us to go somewhere else and do this other thing. And I think like one of the things that like Ruth was saying that was important is like you're not like keeping that thought just like hidden away and you're just mulling over it by yourself when you know dark moments or something like that. But you're in conversation with the people around you and they're able to give you input and insight of like, man, you say this is something you want to pray about. Think about it. You know, maybe God wants to hammer out these different things and changing who you are, how you do ministry or how you view yourself or view others and stuff like that. So it's very much like the crucible effect of leadership where it's like God is using difficult challenging circumstances that are also really fun to be able to kind of like hone you and prepare you. And I think that was like one of the things that it's only it's only going to make sense in retrospect is like God gives you different experiences that in the future like, oh, this is why God let us go through these different, you know, work experiences or go through these different ministry experiences. But as Ruth and I were like praying about this and thinking about this and engaged in the college group like, you know, there was some stuff that we talked about. We're just like, you know, what would really, we don't want to just go do this by ourselves. If God's calling us to go overseas, we really would love to have another couple with us. Right. And so you're praying about like, God, if this is something that you're like leading us toward, just pray that you provide somebody else that wants to go over as well. And a number of months later, some friends, good friends who are still that we were doing high school ministry with like a prayer chest and like, Hey, we're really thinking about Southeast Asia. And would you guys be interested in like talking about what that might look like? And we're, we were kind of like shocked. Like, we love these guys. These guys are awesome. Like, if we could go overseas with these guys, this would be so much fun. Dream team. And, you know, they prayed about it and thought about it. And then they were like, we don't think this is what God is calling our family to do right now. And for us, it was kind of like, Oh, that's real exciting. And then you're like, Oh, man, that would have been so much fun. But their reasons were totally solid. And like you'd like hear them explain it. You're like, yeah, I think God is leading you to like stay and not do this. But we're like, well, we still don't want to go by ourselves. Right. So start praying again of just like God, would you provide somebody? And then another couple that we really loved was like, Hey, we're really interested in this. And so we continue to explore and dialogue with this other couple of like, you know, this is what work would look like over there. This is what life would look like. This is the need. This is what it looks like to engage people in that community and with different roles. And you know, you get, you're getting really excited. And as this other couple again, praise about it and thinks about it and seeks God's will on it. You know, they're like, we don't think that God is calling us to move overseas. God is calling us to serve here. And you're again, you're like bummed out, but you're like, no, I think they're right. I think God is calling them to stay and do ministry here. And at that point in time, we like realized we're like, we're okay. If it's just us going over. And God answered our prayer to provide these people to kind of walk through a walk walk with us through this exploration period. Where we needed somebody to like encourage us and come alongside us and help figure out what this might look like and talk it through and pray about it and think about it. And it was like, you know, we felt pretty cared for by the Lord that he answered these prayers that we had of like, we don't want to do this by ourselves. And God provided exactly what we needed to help guide us through that period to help direct us onto the field at that point. It's interesting too, because I would imagine, I mean, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but it was probably confusing to sort of feel like, yeah, we would love to do this in tandem with another couple. And, you know, then for the two couples that you're actually dialoguing about it with for them, both to be like, actually, you know what, I don't think this is a great move for us. Kind of, you know, like, oh, like, are we in the rock? You know, like, should we be reconsidering this also? You know, just sort of having those expectations. Readjusted. Yeah, I think we did feel that way. And I just, I do want to clarify that we were going to join a team. So it wasn't like we were going to be completely by ourselves. It was more a desire to have somebody like go through this process of getting to the field and starting out there fresh because the team we were joining was they had been there a long time. And we're at different life stages than us in different places, obviously, and like their ministry and then they're just their lives there. But I do think that God really challenged us on like, yeah, of course, we had ideas about what we wanted it to look like. And I do think God challenged those. And I do think he was saying, like, what am I asking you to do? Yeah, right. Are you going to respond to that? And I really remember reading the Gospel of John at that time. And at the end of the book of John, you know, when Peter's where Jesus is telling Peter, like, you need to follow me. You know, you're going to eventually be like an old person. You know, when you were young, you did what you wanted. But when you were when you're old, somebody else leads you. And you just trust him where they take you. You know, and this is, I think it's after he looks and he's like, well, what about him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Jesus is like, it's really none of your concern, what I'm asking him to do. And I felt God saying that to me. Like, you don't really need to worry about what I'm asking these other families to do, what I'm asking these other couples to do. What am I asking you to do? And I think, I think we just had a sense of like, we don't, we don't know what it'll look like for God to provide for us. But we know that he will. Yeah, that's cool. And I like what you were saying about, you know, it sounds like both of you sort of having open dialogue with people about this because I think sometimes maybe, you know, I'm chewing on this, this passion. Maybe it's a burden. Is this a calling? You know, I feel like I have this desire. Like, I'm going to keep my cards close to my chest. Because if it's not, I don't want to look like an idiot who's been blabbing about, you know, like, I'm going to go do this amazing thing. But it sounds like you're like, no, you got to sort of take your ego out of the equation. And yeah, dialogue with people about people that you trust, you know, that this is an open conversation. It's not like God just whispered to me by myself in private, go do this thing, you know. And it can begin that way. But I think, like John said, one, I think we felt like if God calls us to stay, we would be so content and happy and fulfilled to serve him here. And so I think we had peace about that in our hearts. But yeah, I think by the time we were like, oh, maybe this specific field at the specific time is what God's calling us to. We did have a period of time where it was just us talking about that. But then it was like another, like, almost three, you know, two and a half years of talking it through with other people and what it would look like. And by the time once I think everybody was like, yes, everybody could say this is this is what we think God is saying. It was very quick. Like it was only, I think we did like four months of fundraising a couple months later. I think we were gone. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Okay, so let's talk about like, okay, so we've talked about this, you know, your personal stories being called overseas. Okay, but bigger pictures. Someone is trying to figure out what's God's will for my life personally. I don't know. How would you sort of itemize? Okay, this is how God speaks to a person gives them direction. What do you got? Okay, are you ready for the secret formula answer to this question? Just discovering God's will for your life. Here it is. Just kidding. Right. There is not one. And I think there is a sort of mysterious process to hearing God's voice. But I think it's something that you know God's voice when you hear it. And sometimes it's really clear. But sometimes it's not. And I also think that even if God has spoken very clearly to me, applying what he has said often takes the body of Christ to figure out what is an application of this look like. But I think one of the best things we can do if we want to figure out what God's will for our life is is to obey him and what he has already made crystal clear. And if we really want to know is he speaking to me is he leading me somewhere else. We should look at how have I heard his voice here. Yeah. How have I been able to hear him speak to me. The promptings of the spirit, the answered prayers, the words of correction or encouragement that I've received from other believers. Oh, how have I heard him here. How am I obeying him here. That's what primes you to be able to recognize his voice. What would you add to that, John? I would add to that. Yeah. You know, you're spending time with God and that you're asking him and you were like Ruth saying like you responded to what God has already made super clear. But there also is like a subjective part of it where it's like you'll get convictions of like, you know, you're at home church and you see somebody across the room like kind of standing in a corner. And you're like, I need to go talk to this person and encourage them and something that I've seen. And it's always a part of you. It's like, it's all they're all the way over there. I don't really want to. You don't want to, right? And you have to wrestle with yourself for a second. But it's like learning to respond to like small convictions of like, I'm going to go introduce myself to a person. I'm going to go have a hard conversation with somebody. I'm going to go talk to somebody and ask them like what God's doing. And in their life. I'm going to respond to those convictions that God gives me or those nudges that you feel sometimes to go have a conversation or go serve somebody. And, you know, I think like starting to do that more regularly, being willing to put yourself in an uncomfortable position and ask God like, what do you want me to do in this situation? Not saying, what do I want to do in this situation? But like, God, what would you have me say here? What would you have me do here? Like, give me some insight. Give me your perspective on this person, right? Like learning to ask God and then respond to whatever small step he gives you becomes, I think, really important. Yeah. As you get more used to doing that, God is going to continue to give you more and more opportunities to like respond to his conviction and respond to his leading. I think the dangerous thing is that you have a person that just kind of does whatever they want. And then one day they're like, I'm going to ask God to tell me if I should go overseas or not. But they're not used to responding to like God's voice in their life on a day to day basis, whether it's coming through the scripture or coming in prayer or coming through the people that know you are speaking into your life, right? If you're a person that like doesn't want to take input from anybody and doesn't want to listen to anybody, you probably also aren't going to listen to when God convicts you on your challenges. Yeah. So kind of growing in that like responsiveness. And I think that becomes really, really important. Yeah. I think that's so good too, because, you know, sometimes I think we have these sort of, maybe it's me because I'm delusional, have these like, you know, grandiose ideas. Like, should I move overseas? Should I move to New York? Should I write a book? You know, like these like, and it's like, how about you just like be nice to the girl sitting next to you at Bible study or, you know, why don't you think about people when they're not around? Learn to initiate. Yeah, that at any point, it's like, I can look around and see, okay, there are definitely things that I know are within God's will opportunities for me to say yes, or to like, take his no now. And I gotta like get those reps in before I'm like, should I become an author or, you know, anyway? Yeah, I think that's, that's really good. And I think it's okay for us to come and bring these like big passions and these big burdens and visions we have to God and say, what do you think about this? What do you want? And, but we like need to give him time to respond to us. And what we do in that time of waiting is gonna impact our ability to hear his voice. And I think being willing to wait until you hear from him is really important, whether, you know, on any big decision. And sometimes he doesn't speak very loudly and he's lead or he's silent and he is giving us a choice. Yeah. He's not necessarily trying to direct every single choice we make in life. But there are times, and I do think when you're talking about leaving a ministry to go start another ministry, especially if you're leaving responsibilities behind. And especially if you're going to be requiring a lot of resources that we want to remain good stewards of. We really want to hear from God. And I think something I thought a lot about and I still think a lot about is in the book of Exodus after everything with the golden calf. And how God's like, okay, Moses, I don't think I can stay with these sinful people. You know, why don't you take them to the promised land. And Moses then in Exodus 33 has this conversation with God and he's like, just don't send me anywhere that your presence isn't going to go with me. Yeah. I think we can force things to happen. We can make them happen. Right. And God will let us do that. But I wanted to be sure that God was behind this and that he was going with us. And that was so important to us. And it was something we reflected back on a lot. And it was something that was affirmed more and more while we were there. But I also feel like in following God's will for your life and answering his call, my experience with God has never been like he's like, oh, here's the plan for the rest of your life. Here's the blueprint of everything I'm going to ask you to do. Right. Right. Yeah. It's more like, this is what I'm asking you to do right now. Will you do that? Yeah. Trust me with the long term. Yeah. I will talk to you when that time comes about what the next step is, but can you take this step today? Like you're saying, can you be nice to this girl sitting next to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really good. And I think that we want, right. I feel more secure. Right. Give me the next 10 steps so I know definitely I'm doing the right thing. But I think that, yeah, this is about a relationship. This is about our closeness with him. So it's like, I think, yeah, usually it's like, I'll give you one. I'll give you one step toward me and we will walk in step. But I'm not going to give you 10. That's just not. That's not how it works. Well, I think too, like human nature is if you give me the 10 steps, then I will take care of the next 10 steps and I'll get, I'll check things off the list and I can follow this through and I'll use in my own strength. I'm going to accomplish ABC and work my way down through that list, but really like God is trying to cultivate relationship and closeness and dependence of faith in us. And he's using that process to grow us and transform us. Not he doesn't have a laundry list of things. He just doesn't know how to get done. And so he needs to give it to us and get done for him. But he wants to involve us in the process of the things that he's doing at the same time that he's making us more Christ like. I think too. When we look back on it now, right, and we look at the things that God asked us to do in the way that we responded. It's easy, I think, for John and I now to be like, yeah, we just listened to God, right? But it was really confusing. And I did not always have the best attitude about having to wait. And I didn't always like this, right? Especially in the beginning. This was something that God worked into us. And I think it's something that we became really grateful for. And we've had lots of periods of waiting for God's direction since that initial call. And I think that's biblical, right? If you look at examples throughout the Bible, there are lots of circumstances where God has communicated to someone. Here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I'm anointing you for. And then they get put in this space where they just have to wait. Like you think about David being anointed as king. God said, super clear through a prophet. It's hard to miss. It's hard to miss what he's saying, right? You're going to be the king. And I'm sure David went home that day and was like, this is going to be awesome. I'm about to be the king. The prophet just told me and didn't know that between the moment that he was anointed and the moment that he sat on that throne, that he was going to have to go through years and years of suffering and hardship and being in the wilderness. And there was a lot of difficulty in refining of his character that was going to have to take place before he could take that role. The same thing with Abraham, where God's like, I'm going to give you a son decades between when that promise is made and when it is actually fulfilled. And when Abraham tried to make it happen in his own power, disaster. So I think it's important to when you do feel like I do have this conviction. I do feel like God is going to call me overseas to not then be like, and I need to make it happen by the end of the year. Right, right, right. But instead, be like, OK, Lord, how are you going to bring this about? And how do I be faithful with this calling? And what are you trying to do with me and through me in the meantime? As I'm waiting and praying about whether or not this is your will, and I think it is, but I'm not sure. All right, Lord, what do you want to do? Yeah, I don't get to put a timeframe that I'm going to dictate to you about how this is going to unfold. Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good. I think those examples are, yeah, it's like very specific. You've got a role. King, you know, father of a nation, but they didn't have a timeline. You know, and it's like, man, we're talking about years and you're like, no, he can't ask me to wait for years. But often that's literally exactly what he does. Yeah. OK, so here's maybe this is like, I don't know, maybe this is like more philosophical. But when it comes to calling from God, do you think it's more about the individual, you know, me and my gifts and I don't know my interest in my call or is calling more about, you know, God and what he's doing. I don't know. Can you even divide them? I think it's actually pretty important that you figure out what the starting point is going to be, right? If hearing the call of God is really about you being able to self actualize, you're going to end up in a pretty messy spot really quickly. If hearing the call of God is seeing what God is doing and where he's at work in the world or whether where he's at work here and saying, God, I want to be on the same page as you and I want to participate in what you're already doing. Then it really changes the equation because it's part of you wrestling through dying to self and saying, Lord, I'm willing to play whatever role you have for me. I think it does get dangerous when you're like, here's what my agenda is and I want God to sign off. That's a bad spot to start with. But I think when you sit down and say, I have a burden for this people group overseas, God, what do they need? And then what role can I play in helping accomplish what you're doing? It's a really different equation. It's a different way of thinking through what calling might be. And when it starts with what's God doing and who is God and how is he at work in the world, it really might change the perspective that you have on what your role is in that story. Yeah, that's awesome. That's really helpful. I think too, we can tell God, I would love to do this one day. I want to serve you this way. I think God, again, wants us to be agents in the things that we're doing for him. We're not robots that are just being programmed. But we have to, it's a cooperative effort. And I mean, I think that's true of ministry anywhere, right? Like, this is something God has invited us to partner with him in. He has a part, we have a part and part of his design for humans, right, is that he's like, I want you to play a part in my plan. I want to partner with you in this. And so we should share those desires burdens and visions that we have with God. But I think we, again, have to have the patience to listen to him. We need to allow him to reveal his will through the word prayer, the body of Christ. But also, I think there's, there's something to us coming to God in praying. Make me into the kind of person that could play a role like this. Like, if I feel called to overseas work, God, what would it take in my life to become the type of person that could serve cross-culturally. And, yeah, allow him to kind of play a role of transforming us. And that we're inviting that into our lives. Yeah, that's cool. What about like, okay, so if someone, you know, is like, okay, yeah, I think that God has led me here. I'm con, you know, to inner city work or, you know, I have this burden. What kind of mistakes do you think people make once they're like, no, the call is genuine, but we can still love it. I think, you know, when you're, you're wrestling through that, I mean, like, people are, we're pretty finite, right? And we tend to trust ourselves. And we tend to be, I don't know, as a culture, like Americans, like, one of the cool things about living in different cultures, you get to see your own culture from a different point of view. And you're, then you're suddenly like, oh, that's what Americans are like. And they're like, oh, I am exactly like, like, you know, one of the things that you see, we mentioned earlier is like impatience, right? Like Americans tend to be really impatient. And I'm like, oh, I'm super impatient. It turns out. And I like to wind a lot. And yeah, that's, it's really unbecoming. But we're impatient Americans, especially are pretty individualistic, right? So that gets back to that idea of like, it's really between me and God. And me and God are going to talk this through and then decide on what my calling is. Right. And, you know, I'm going to tell him what I want and see if he will give it a green light. And so we don't, we're reluctant to bring other people into that conversation. Yeah. And then when we do bring other people into the conversation, sometimes we don't want to hear what they have to say, right? Like, I am really indebted to the people that had pretty direct conversations with me when I was younger and said, and this is the areas of your life where you need to grow and be transformed. And you need to let God have his way with you and your selfishness and your self-fociveness and your passivity and your pride. And just like, you know, they called out things in me that I was not really aware of how they affected other people. But outside of like having a community around me that could that could speak in on those things. Like, I'm like, I would, it would have been a mess if I had like been able to go overseas when I wanted to go overseas. Like, there was just a lot of stuff that God had to do. Yeah, right. I think the same is probably true of other people. It's like, we need to like know what our tendency is. And then we need to be able to stand against it. But asking other people to really weigh in and say, like, I think this is something I want to do. What are the things that you see in me that would really prevent me from being able to flourish and being able to grow overseas? Like, at an old friend that used to say, you can't see your own back. And that's why you need other people around you is because they see the things that you just can't see. Like, we all have blind spots. Yeah. And we need other people to be able to speak to those blind spots to help us to be able to grow in those areas. Mm-hmm. Yeah. To watch your six. Mm-hmm. Let's go. Yep. I would say to like, can you, wait, what was the question again? Like, what kind of mistakes do people make like responding to a genuine call? But I think a mistake would be like a lack of willingness to submit. Mm-hmm. I think having the disposition of like, I'm going to submit to God. I'm going to submit to the authorities that I have in that. I mean, I just, I'm trying to think about how to say this. Maybe a better way to say it is just, I'm more committed to what God wants than I am to my agenda. Mm-hmm. And to this calling I've received. Mm-hmm. Panning out the way I think it should. Sure. And it's hard because I do think a lot of the times people that get called to these things are passionate people that are not satisfied with the status quo. Mm-hmm. And that's such a good thing about people that do more apostolic type ministries. And are pioneering and willing to go and do things that maybe most people wouldn't be willing to go and do. But I think just from our time on the field, we did see a lot of people tank and not make it for different reasons. And some of those were really legitimate good reasons. Mm-hmm. And, you know, people get called back. Mm-hmm. Right? That happens. Like, it's not, like, not trying to make a statement about that. Mm-hmm. But we also have people who burn out quite quickly there. Mm-hmm. And, um, I don't know, there's, there's a lot of factors there. But there would be times that you could just see here's somebody that just cannot listen to other people. Mm-hmm. Here is somebody that does not really want input. Yeah. Um, and so I think that's something that needs to be really thoughtfully considered. Mm-hmm. I mean, it is a really interesting balance because you're like, okay, exactly what you said. The type of person that's probably going to be willing to make a big move, take a big risk, is going to be, you know, probably pretty independent, like, can operate autonomously and yet, but it can't be at the expense of like, I don't know how to work on a team or I don't know how to, like, take input from other people. Yeah. I got to be a team player and I got to know how to submit. Like, and this is like, this is exactly what Jesus exemplifies, right? Like, he's like, he submits to the father. Like, yeah, so no matter how big your, your britches are. So I think, like, what you're saying is totally true and there's a, like, when you use the word, like, somebody's really autonomous, it's like, there's a negative connotation to that, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. But if you're like, that person is also internally motivated, you know, from the outside, an autonomous person, an internally motivated person, they look a lot like, right? They're like, nobody told that person what to do, they just went and they started this thing. They just went and initiated this. They are go-getter. But, but I think part of the difference between the autonomous and the independent motivated person is the motivation. The autonomous person is like, I don't need any of these people. Uh-huh. And I can just go do, I can make things happen on my own. Right. Or I don't want these people. Sometimes people are annoying, right? So it's just better if I just take care of everything and, but, but the independently motivated person is really like the type of characteristic that you are looking for somebody that wants to serve overseas, where you don't have a good structure. You're not like trying to work within like a home church context. There's a person's like, I want to try to start something new. And I feel like God is like leading me to do this. And, and I would love to have other people do this with me. But even if there aren't, I'm willing to try it on my own. Because I feel like God's calling me to try to do this. And I think like, when you started thinking about, you know, you asked about the, the risks that, or the mistakes that people made when they do feel called. But I think if you flip that conversation or that, that question, you flip it on its head and say, what are the characteristics somebody that is really good? Then you start getting into this, you know, they should be independently motivated, internally motivated. They should be willing to try new stuff. They should be willing to take risks and have it not go well and be okay with that. Right. Like there needs to be like this hardiness that people have. And waiting until you move overseas to try to do new things is, is a mistake. Right. It's like, as some people have said, like, what can I do here to try to figure this out if I'm called or not? And I'm like, you should just try to do things that are hard and uncomfortable. And just become the type of person that responds to God's conviction and is willing to step out and try something new. And when you fail and it doesn't go well and you fall in your face and you feel embarrassed, that you're able to get back up and dust yourself off and say, I thought God was leading me to try this and it didn't work out. Right. But I'm willing to try again. Yeah. And I'm willing to keep trying as long as I feel like God is like encouraging me to give it a shot. And God teaches us a ton through our failures. Right. Like I think there's maybe this misconception that a person that goes overseas and is overseas work is like they're super holy. They're holier than anybody else you know. They are not. Like they're just people. And, but they were people that were willing to say, yes, when God asked them to do something hard. And those people, people that say yes to God, they are exciting to be around it. They are winsome, no matter what context they're serving in. And so being like a person that's willing to like respond to God's conviction, try to do hard things, willing to like put themselves out there, even if they're going to look silly, willing to engage with people that maybe other people are uncomfortable with, you know, it like becoming that type of person that is able to, to take initiative and not sit back and just be like, well, no one told me that I should go talk to that guy or no one told me I should try to serve this community that maybe is a little bit awkward for me or I don't understand them. But to be like, there was an opportunity, I took it. There was an open door and I said, who knows, maybe God is going to bless this. Let's check it out and see what God does. And I mean, I think one of the things that you're mentioning, John, of just being willing to try something, have it not go as planned. But to keep trying that there's a resiliency that I think is needed. So when you think about like, what, what are the mistakes people make, it would probably be a lack of perseverance. Or I think the resiliency that's needed is for things to not go the way that you wanted to things, for things to look different and maybe even like a failure at times. But to be like, I'm going to keep going. I'm not done here. That kind of resiliency I think is really important. So I think somebody that has not yet experienced a good bit of failure, I don't think would be a good candidate. Yeah. I think we, we would hope to see people that have had failure, have had things not work out the way they wanted, has experienced some degree of disappointment and has been able to look back at that with the biblical lens and see God's hand in it and what God has brought out of it, I think that would be really important before going to the field. Yeah. Why is I like it? What about like, okay, so yeah, I think sometimes when we think about calling, again, we have these like, oh, yes, called to a foreign land, called to start a new ministry from scratch. Do people get called to like be a stay at home parent or, you know what I mean, like, is that different? Are we talking about something different? Or is it just sort of like, I don't know, it's between you and God. That's a great question. I think that there's a variety of answers to that question. I think there are definitely people that have felt called to being stay at home parents. There are definitely people that have been called to ministry to the poor. There are definitely people that have been called to student ministries. And I mean, I think there are people that have this sense of calling. And then there are people that are just acting out of obedience. And sometimes, you know, if we were to, I'm sure there's lots of overlap. I'm not saying that the people that are answering calling are not being obedient or the people acting out of obedience are not experiencing any sense of calling. But I do think we need to be careful at looking at everything that we're doing in life and saying, like, God told me to do this, like, we don't see the author's scripture talking that way about everything. I don't think we need to be talking that way about everything. But there were certain things that they're like, God called me to do this. And so I'm doing it. And I think we'll all have things like that in our lives. Yeah. It's just, you know, like, I wonder if maybe we get a little too, yeah, black and white about it. Or, you know, it's like, I'm inventoring my life. And I'm like, well, I'm just, I just work part time and my life's so small. And it's like, no, no, wait a second. But we're talking about, yeah, it's like a lifestyle of obedience. Right. So maybe I'm not like. Fill in the blank, whatever it is, you think like people get called. Yeah, I think there's, there's two, two things to consider here with this. And one is that we've been given agency, right? We have decisions to make and God, like I really like the way Dallas Willard talks about this, right? Like God wants us to be mature, like in his book on hearing God, he gives this example of like, you know, like if my kids are in my house, they don't need to come ask me if it's my will for them to eat, like peanut butter, jelly sandwich or whatever. Like there's plenty of things in this home that they can do that are within my will. Yeah. You know, and that I would be happy. I want them to become decision makers in their own life. I want them to be, I want my children to become adults. Have agency. Yeah. So I think God gives us that. Like on, on one side, it's like, we got to, we got to make decisions and we got to own them and, and we got to do that. And then on, on the other side, I'm kind of forgetting my point, Abby is me. Let me tell you a story about myself. I think the point is, well, on the other side, sometimes the other side, John, sometimes God does give you specific calling. That's true. Right. There are going to be times where you feel like God is, is really laying on your heart. This is something that you need to do or that he's calling you to get engaged in the ministry or, you know, move overseas. And sometimes, you know, you'll, you'll pray and ask the Lord, like, what should I do? Should I go here? Should I go there? Should I, should I stay here? Should I go overseas? And God is, is equally happy with either of those options. What he, he's just delighted that you are in dialogue with him about this. And he's going to give you the freedom to pursue either one and either one of them is going to be fantastic. And he wants to use you and he wants to bless that decision. I think we've sometimes fallen to this trap of like, there's this one very specific totally path for my life. And if I miss God's calling, I am totally screwed. Totally. And I am terrified of missing God's calling because God's calling is mysterious. It's personal. It's a very still small voice and I might miss it. And it's like missing your, like missing your stop on a train. Yeah. And if you miss it, oh my goodness, you are in deep, deep trouble. And I don't think God's wills like that. I don't think God's character is like that. Like he knows that we're finite and he knows that we're easily confused and easily distracted. And if we are talking to him about it and asking him for input, he delights in making his will clear. But he also gives us a lot of freedom and he gives us a lot of agency. And you can look at different choices of, should I stay? Should I go? Should I join this home church? Should I be a part of that home church? Should I be engaged in ministry with these kids or with those kids? And if you sit there and are just like, oh, man, what's God's will? And I hope I don't mess up God's will for my life. That's that's the wrong way to look at it. Like God will make it really clear. Like he made his will clear all throughout the you look through the whole story of the Bible again and again. Like God is making his will clear to people in a totally unique ways, whether it's through a burning bush or it's a voice in the middle of the night, or whether it's through a vision or it's through a dream or through. Like you like if you actually sit down and start to do the study of how does God interact with people, it's really kind of exciting. But it's also confusing because there's not like a good pattern that you can just be like, well, as long as I get up and get my quiet time from 5 a.m. to 6 a.m., that's when the voice of the Lord comes, it shows up in all kinds of different ways, the different points and different convictions, whether it's some of my best convictions that God has laid on my heart is when I've been like driving on the highway, just driving. And then God will like give me some insight or give me like a challenge or a word of encouragement that it's not an audible voice, but it's just like this realization that hits you like a two by four and you're like, I've been thinking about the situation where the sky all are wrong. This is what God thinks about this and this is what I need to do. And it's, you know, driving on I-70 East, heading out towards Zatesville, right? Why would the Lord give me this inside of Christ's road? I don't know. But this is where apparently he speaks. That doesn't mean I'm going to keep driving past that same point, trying to get another word from the Lord. That's what he communicates to us and he meets us on a personal level. Yeah, I think that that is the spectrum, right? Like I have agency, but I think that's important so that we don't walk around just saying, well, God told me, God told me, God told me, you know, to do this. So nobody can say anything to me, God told me that's dangerous, right? We need to have agency and we need to be catalysts of our own lives, right? Like, what, how am I going to like be proactive in following God, right? But then, yeah, we need that, like we've been saying this whole time, this, I'm going to wait on him, I'm going to listen to other people. I'm willing to accept what he has for me, even if it's not what I want. And we have to be willing to kind of hold both those things. And I have a couple of friends too specifically that have said at various points of time, they felt like a conviction from God to go do something. And they didn't respond in that moment. And then they wondered, have I missed God's will for me? Right. You got up track and now the rest of your life's been derailed. Yeah. And, you know, I think God has really used that because God's lives because they wrestled with that and came to a point of peace with it. But the very next time they got another inclination like that, they grabbed onto it and they were like, I'm willing to sacrifice everything. Yeah. I'm throwing away my career. I'm throwing away all this stuff that is really, in the eyes of the world, you're an absolute idiot for responding to God's calling. But because they had already had that experience when they heard the voice of God, like convicting them, they're like, you cannot deter me from pursuing after what God has laid on my heart. And it's cool to see like both those guys are like, guys, I really respect a ton. But it gave them kind of this like relentlessness to be like, I know this is what God's calling me to and I'm going to do it. Yeah. And I'm willing to throw everything else off to the side because I'm going to pursue God's will for my life. Yeah, that's cool. Okay. If someone, maybe this is the last question, if someone is listening and they feel like, okay, God has a call for me, but I'm afraid. I'm afraid to say yes. Like, I don't know, how would you encourage them? What would you say to them? I'd be more afraid of saying no. Just thinking about that example, John just said, and I mean, I think all of us have examples like that from our lives. I mean, I do. There was times where I know God was asking me to do something and I didn't do it. And I had all these reasons why it didn't make sense for me to do it, or I shouldn't, you know, whatever. There were consequences because of that. And I think we've, we've, we all have that. We have things that we didn't do that we wish we would have. We had things that we did that we wish we wouldn't have. And we learned from those. So if you're pretty sure God is calling you to do something, you probably should be afraid of saying no more than saying yes. Good morning. I think when you look at like Paul, when he was like moving towards Jerusalem, like where we look at Paul, he was like responding to God's conviction of like, you need to follow me where I'm leading you. They're kept on being people that were like, hey, if you if you continue to pursue God's will, you're going to suffer, you're going to be tied up. You're going to be imprisoned. You're like, this is a bad thing. And kept on being like, I'm willing to suffer. I'm willing to die. Like, he had a track record for the Lord of just like, man, God's calling me to do this. It's a scary thing. There's a price to be paid. It's totally worth it. Like, I don't think God calls us to do things. And then promises that all along the way, it's going to be smooth sailing. Right? He definitely doesn't like when Paul talks about like, you know, I have this opportunity that there's a door has been opened wide. There's lots of suffering and persecution associated with it. And you're like, Oh, wait, he is responding to these circumstances. They're suffering occurring. And he's looking at saying, like, this is totally God's well. This is fantastic. What's happening. And God is using the suffering to refine and transform us and bring us closer to Christ. And I think like part of the process that God wants to take us through is to convince us that like, as he calls us to do stuff that we are willing to respond, regardless of personal cost. And I think ultimately, we're going to it's going to get reframed. We're going to be so delighted that we ever had the opportunity to suffer for Christ, that we ever had the opportunity to sacrifice anything for him. And that someday and have, we're going to look back on all the sacrifices that we ever made. And just be like, it was so worth it. I just wish I had sacrificed more. I just wish that I had more that I could have given to glorify God. So I don't know, he's convincing us that following after him is the absolute best. And I, you know, when I say like, Oh, I'd be more afraid of saying no, I don't want to like, I don't want to pretend that saying yes to these things is easy. Right. It's not easy. Right. I remember people saying like, I could never do what you might never take my kids like, I didn't want to necessarily do all of this. Yes, I wanted to have these burdens and these visions. But there's definitely times where like, no, I did not want to do some of this stuff. This was not my idea of a good time. It came with a cost. It came with a cost. So it's not wrong for people to say, I'm afraid. And there's plenty of examples in scripture, too. I've got asking people to do things and them being like, no, thanks, man, Moses, no, no, nobody else would be better at this. Jonah, I'm going to run away. Mm hmm. Lots of, you know, people, these are hard things that God calls us to. So it's not wrong, I guess, to look at what God's calling you to and say, don't really want to do that. That sounds scary. That sounds hard. I don't want to do that. I think we can be honest with God about that. But it's a question of what will you do? And as you know, I do love when Jesus tells the story of the, you know, the father that asks the two sons, like, go and plow the field for me. And the one son's like, sure, dad, and then does not do it. And the other son is, his response is, I'm not doing that. But then he goes and does it. And Jesus says, which one of these sons obey his father? Yeah, it's good. Good. Abby, last thought is, you know, part of like this whole idea of like, are you going to be able to hear God's calling? Like part of it is you have to spend time with God. Yeah. If you want to be able to get a sense of where he's leading you is like, you need to just be spending time with him. And I think it's really easy to get super busy. And I think like being relentless and carving out that time so that you can just waste time with God and spend time reading your word and talk to him in prayer, listening to him in prayer, asking him what he thinks about things, trying to cultivate that conversational relationship with God where you're, you're sharing the things that are on your heart, but you're also trying to ask him what his thoughts are on things and being able to create a space to kind of slow down and really set your heart and your mind on things above. Yeah. Like, I think if you're not doing that, it's really, really hard to get God's perspective. It's hard to get his input. And culturally, it's just so hard to find or make that time. There's so many distractions that are so easy. So being willing to carve out that space where you can just spend a significant amount of time with God and thinking about who he is and what he's done and his faithfulness. And I think it changes our hearts so that we're more able to hear God as he's like leading us. Yeah. Kind of non-negotiable. Yeah. Totally. Good. Well, Ruth, J. Dub, thanks for coming on here. Yeah, that's it for this episode of dwell on these things. If you're interested in hearing more dwell on these things podcasts, go ahead and subscribe for notifications about future episodes. And for more information about dwell community church, you can find us on the internet at dwellcc.org.