Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. Welcome to Dwell on These Things. I'm Pat Reeder. I'm Director of Equipping here at Dwell Community Church. With me today is Steve Bauer, the Director of Operations and Facilities here, and Mike Sullivan, who is one of our pastors, elders, teachers here. Today we're going to be talking about something a little bit more sensitive, you might say. We're talking about the death of a spouse, and both of our guests here have experienced that. And you know, this is an unusual topic, because on the one hand, it's something that just about everyone will experience at some point in their life, but not everyone experiences it at the same time. And so I guess I wanted to hear from you guys, like, just let's start with your story. Tell us what you experienced. Yeah, just let's go from there. Well, this is Steve. I'll start. I mean, my story is 23 years old from when my wife Marilyn died. And it's, you know, we'd been married for almost 19 years at that point. And we'd known each other for another four years. I'd known her since I was 18, and she was 20. And I was thinking through, you know, there's so many details to share. But in her case, she had some underlying medical conditions that we thought were well taken in hand. And as she was going through some testing, because of some rough spots in her health, MRSA invaded her body. And it ended quickly within 20, 22 hours, she was gone. And it was, so it was sudden from that perspective. And at the time, we had been blessed to be able to adopt a little girl from China, who is now five at that point, and a son from Cambodia, who was three. And so that was where I was in terms of the process of where God had me where life had me at that juncture in my life with these two wonderful kids and confusion and deep, deep sense of grief. Yeah, of course. And coming through that there's so much to think through or to to process through as I even think back to that. And it's 23 years later, it's not over, it's not gone. It's changed. I feel for Mike, Mike was actually my office mate at the time. Yeah, I watched you go through that whole season. Yeah, yep. And, and the ups and downs of coming to that point where Marilyn passed on and the people that were brought into my life before and after that were, you know, just a remarkable part of this. And as I reflect back this much later, God changed me and blessed me during that time. But the, the core of who do you cling to? What do you cling to? became much more real. And so there's so much more, but I'll leave it at that. And, Mike, I don't know if you then want to. Sure. I know one thing, Steve, you know, I've known you since I started working here since 1998. So what is that? That's 28, 28 years this October, I think so. Whoa. Yeah, long time. I remember, I remember you losing Marilyn and just being struck by you and how you, how you rebounded from that. And I also was deeply struck by the supporting cast of friends around you who, and not just like near neighborhood friends in home church, but people across the whole fellowship really threw in to try to support you guys, you and your kids. And that was, yeah, eye-opening. My story is obviously a different one. I lost Edith in April of last year, so still kind of fresh. Right. I guess it'll always be that way. Like you've said, Steve, we met in 1989 and went on a couple of dates over the summer, decided to start dating, got married in 1990 in a little church up near Home Road and Route 315, just a country church out there. I got married, had kids after about five years and we fought a lot when we first got married. I was super strong-willed. We both were worse. Yeah, it was a lot of battles, but we eventually felt like we were stable enough to start a family. So we had a couple of kids, Maggie and Kate, who are 30, 30 and 29 right now. So, you know, many years, you know, we, when she passed, we'd been married 34 years. So long stretch together. Really, you know, we actually had some tragedy as a couple. We lost three, you know, we had one miscarriage and two midterm in the hospital pregnancy losses that were really brutal. So we, you know, we're not unfamiliar with some, you know, with tragedy. Then we found out in 2013 that Edith had breast cancer and it was in situ. It didn't, it looked pretty manageable. We did a couple, she did a couple of lumpectomies until they realized they couldn't get a clean margin. So we, she wound up getting a mastectomy and then we went through 2014 was a year of multiple surgeries because when her cancer was detected, they do a kind of a full body scan and they found this thing in her lungs that they initially told us was metastasized breast cancer in her lungs. But I had a buddy throughout this whole process, Joel Shockley, who was super helpful and very, very supportive with us. But I asked him to look over everything because it was such a massive change in treatment if it was going to be a lung, lung cancer situation. And he, he was like, it's not lung cancer. It's a pulmonary sequestration, which is this- I'm assuming this friend of yours is a doctor. He is. Yeah. Yeah. A radiologist. Yeah. You're not just bringing this to your buddy at home church like, what do you think's going on here? This guy's a board certified radiologist and I've had him kind of double check everything all the way through. That's really cool. It's helpful. But anyhow, this is a, this thing she had in her lungs was a potential killer. And so the cancer revealed what probably would have killed her sooner. We were able to get her lung operated on. Wow. Able to control the cancer for about five years. We were in the clear. So we went off of hormone therapy and just kind of looked like we were cruising pretty good. But then Edith fractured a vertebra in 2021, went to the doctor, found out her spine was riddled with metastasized breast cancer and that she had another kind of cancer called cholangiocarcinoma in her liver. So, and we went through a variety of treatment options and a lot of amazing care from OSU mainly and a lot of amazing care from people in our church. And then in just in early 2025, we learned that her breast cancer had metastasized into her liver and there was a very rapid decline after that. So here we are. But great life with a great wife, really awesome stretch. I'll always be grateful for the time we were able to spend together. Yeah, absolutely. I just, that is looking back like, man, what a journey you were on. I think of the same thing, the journey and the beauty of that. Marilyn and I were not believers when we got married and God changed and, and I'll use the word fixed, it's not that simple, but corrected our marriage and created something beautiful that allowed us then to live together in a different way than we had before. And you think about the people who were brought into your life, the people of our home church, absolutely wonderful. And, you know, and things, but you're right about like the body of believers in Dwell Community Church coming together and serving and, and, you know, we don't know what to say. We don't all know the right things sometimes, but it's all under grace and under God and people have the best of intentions and serve practically, serve in coming forward. I had numerous people come forward and say, hey, I've got something to share. One of the keys to me was Wayne Talarczyk, had lost his wife under similar circumstances. And he's like, I'm at Marilyn's Memorial, came forward and was like, hey, I think I have some things to share with you. And I knew Wayne at that point through ministry, but not, I came to know him over the next couple of months as he laid his life down and shared his experience from 30 years before and gave me a very different vision, opened my eyes. Like I just, I was stuck. I was not thinking as I came to think because of Wayne. Yeah. And a few others who came in, but that was so impactful. And Wayne two months later is succumbing to pancreatic cancer. And oddly we, you know, Rosie Talarczyk becomes a good friend through that. And we make connection with others who are hurting within our community. That 2003 was a rough year. There were multiple different situations. I got to know Amy McCallum, who's now Amy Marino as her husband died. As Bob Flynn passed on, it was this incredible year. And then Bill Murray later in the year joined our little group. Lost Susan. Of lost his wife, Susan. And the being there for each other and passing on, frankly, I passed on like things from Wayne. To those who were around me. And it became something over then coming years that I was able to share my own experience. Fine. But the things that God brought forth through others and I'm sure, I mean, we should. And what did God do through all this is another topic we will touch on here. But the importance of the body of Christ in sharing and weeping with those who weep. Yeah. And rejoicing with those who rejoice as time goes on and things change and grief morphs and never goes away. But it changes in all those phases. I remember that whole stretch with Wayne that year. I remember hearing his diagnosis, going over to his house. I hung out with him because he wanted to donate a bunch of stuff to our study center. And one of the great things about being in a community like this with believers is you're not the first person or the last that is going to go through one of these tremendous setbacks and watching the dignity and the other centered focus and the forward vision and the hope that Wayne had was just... Thank God. Man, and watching you, me watching you go through what you went through or Bill Murray. There's so many... What we've experienced isn't unique like you brought up at the beginning. There's so many people have been through incredibly challenging work, raising kids with major challenges and birth defects or having these prolonged health. There's so many different ways that people go through difficult times. But man, we both, I think, have had... I was better, I know I can say for myself, I was better prepared for what I went through with Edith by just dozens. I don't think that's an exaggeration, a couple dozen good examples of victorious sufferings. Yeah, yeah. Both of you guys really seem to be emphasizing the role of community there. And I think like, you know, Steve, you were just saying a lot about like the support you received. And Mike, you were kind of emphasizing something I didn't expect you to say, but I think is interesting is the sort of a preparatory support. You know, that like the way the community played a role leading into it, right? I mean, you're also on a much, you know, more recent experience. And so, you know, maybe in another, say, 22 years, you'll look at things differently. But that's an interesting insight about... I don't know if you want to add anything to that, or if Steve, if you had any thoughts, but that preparatory component that somehow being in the body of Christ is both supporting on the back end, but also on the front end. Well, you know, one thing that's different between Steve and I is Edith and I had kind of a long glide path as we were looking at her facing, you know, this final outcome. And we knew in 2000, in 2021, we knew that this was probably going to kill her. Not probably, we were actually, we thought, we were initially told by a different health care provider before we went to Ohio State that her cancer in her bones was cholangiocarcinoma. Okay. And, but, you know, again, we double checked it just because it's such a high stakes thing to assume. Found out, no, it was breast cancer. Then we realized, okay, we may be, we've got years, not months to work with. So that gave us some time to prepare too. So some of it was just living in community, watching people like Steve or Wayne or so many others, the Murrays, go through challenging times. But some of it too, is we did have a little bit of time where we knew it was coming. Right. And we were able to kind of get our heads in scripture, track down old friends and reconnect with people. Get a couple trips in that we always wanted to get in. Right. We were fortunate in that regard. We had some time to think through how to use the time we had. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's just, you know, each, in one hand, like I said at the beginning, you're dealing with, you know, something that, you know, unless you're one of the very few people who dies at the exact same time as your spouse, everyone experiences this at some point. But yeah, it's like these, each of these stories is quite unique, you know, and each person deals with unique challenges. And, you know, like Steve was saying, it's very, even though Maryland had underlying health conditions, this was extremely shocking. Right. Really out of nowhere. Whereas in your case, it was like, as you put it, sort of like a long ramp. So, Mike, I wanted to ask you first, because you're sort of still just past one year, but, and then I'd like to hear Steve as well, but like in this kind of first year, what sorts of things have helped the grieving process and just, and maybe also like what didn't, you know, and that could be all manner of things, both things that you've tried and also just maybe not so well-considered comments from people, or I don't know, I mean, you can have a, I'll let you take that, but yeah, what worked, what didn't work in the first year? Well, I have two daughters, like I mentioned, and we've always had the routine to do family dinner on Sundays and, which I don't think I had ever cooked a single one the entire time we were, I just never was that interested in cooking. Edith was a dynamite cook, never needed to cook. So, but I realized after Edith passed that maintaining some of these normal routines was critical. I didn't want to see our nuclear family just drift apart. And so, you know, just tried to maintain that, like that family lunch. I've, I've gotten dad-daughter dates with each daughter since they were in diapers weekly. Picked that up from Doug Patch and Gary DeLachement, just hanging out with them and just maintain those times. I've just having a couple pillars in our schedule was really key. We got away as a nuclear family. Kate's married to a guy named, great, great dude named Keegan. And Kate, Keegan, and Maggie and I got away to an Airbnb about a month after Edith passed just to kind of check in on each other. We're not a family of like grieving motors, which is not how we're wired. Not flinging dust into the air. I don't have a lot of advice or even reflections on what's helped me to grieve well. Um, I know it's been helpful to talk to Steve. It's been great to talk to Donal Omohuna. Donal, um, really faithfully pursued me. That's awesome. And basically inserted himself in my life and wanted to be part of what was happening with me because he had just lost his wife a little bit prior and we've always known each other. And so, and I needed that. I needed someone who didn't care what I thought, who was going to insert himself and check in on me. And that was extraordinary, super helpful. And then I, the other thing that I'd say was a big, on the positive side is Jay Young and I have been friends since like 1996. And we've maintained our friendship, even though he went away to Orlando. And so just, um, you know, maintaining that connection with him, we just do a FaceTime call on Fridays. And so I think, uh, that, that, I guess the theme would be, uh, I'm not ripping up the carpet here. There's a lot of good things in my life that I need to stick with, especially in a time of adversity, like family time, like friendship connections. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. The word pillars you use, that's another good kind of like hold, holding things steady while, you know, the storms blow through. Um, uh, Steve, what about you? Anything that, especially that first year is probably a pretty, particularly vulnerable season. It was, and, and, and I totally agree, like trying to keep the same things, like not a schedule per, you know, per se, but that I'm pursuing the same, uh, disciplines, uh, in the word praying as difficult as those things are just the bedrock of what those provide, provided in my life. And I'm providing our lives as Christians. I mean, not getting away from those things. Uh, the importance of people, again, it's, uh, we had an odd year in our case where, you know, we had like basically five deaths and it brought this group of people together in a common bond of grief, but also trying to celebrate and trying to, we, we, we would gather together. That was incredibly, uh, important and critical to not moving on in life. You don't, that, that was, I mean, it's sharing with one another, real thoughts, real depth, and you're kind of laid bare with people, like not with everyone, of course, but with individuals who have been in your life. And suddenly I'm, I'm part of this new group of, you know, we'd say our sad little group, but it was also a wonderful little group of, uh, grieving people and long-term relationships. Yours with Jay is wonderful. That's a great example. Dave Glover and I have known each other since, uh, 1986. And he and his wife, Tracy were critical to, um, our marriage, Maryland's and my marriage and, uh, us becoming who we became, uh, as a critical element. And Dave actually was at my side when, uh, he came to the hospital in Cleveland, uh, because God wouldn't let him rest and was at my side when Maryland, uh, died in the hospital and made talk about a blessing. And, uh, in my life, I don't know how Dave, you know, to go through something like that, standing at someone's side, but, uh, to have him there. Uh, and then in an ongoing way over the next year in particular, just time with, uh, being able to vent, being able to be very, very confused, uh, but then also, uh, rising above that. I am a bit of an emoter. I didn't know as much. Uh, uh, I, my kids were three and five too. I didn't have, uh, Kate and Maggie or, you know, adults who can interact and, and things. And, uh, I had these kids who needed me as much, but I needed them to, to center me, to, you know, fight the good fight, finish the course at that time when there were times I didn't want to do that. But again, the importance of community and then outside of community fan, uh, family who, who came, uh, Maryland's family in particular, how, uh, they serve her sister served us, uh, in an incredible way, uh, helping with the kids and things. And then we talk about my kids have like three or four moms during that time, uh, from fellowship, Cindy body in particular. And, uh, Susan Fulford, who are just, uh, amazing, uh, in, in terms of laying their life down and Tish Cranach, uh, and gosh, and, and others like just, it's a, those things were important to me. I will say that during that time, I mean, my time in the word changed completely because I'd never loved Isaiah. And I came away with the beauty of, of lament, uh, throughout the Bible and Psalms, uh, kind of, of course, Psalms come alive during a time like that, uh, for a Christian. If, if that doesn't happen, I think there's something like, that's what God put that in the Bible for, and, uh, to come away from that. And, and, uh, CS Lewis became a good friend in, uh, the book of grief observed. And, uh, he, he is the loss of joy. Uh, his wife, uh, shattered him and boy, I, I, he put words because he puts such eloquence to things. He put words to things I couldn't bring words to. And, uh, explained a downward spiral, adapt these different pictures and to, uh, really spend time in that. Mine's very, my copy of that. I know right where it is. It's very, uh, notated and beat up and, uh, it was in my back pocket. It was. And so just having things like that, I mean, I, to put words to, and to then share that even in the first year I got, well, because of the community I was in that small group, uh, got to share with in particular, Bill Murray. And I, I mean, like he has come back to me 20 years later and said there that was, I was impact. I impacted him in what I was able to share about what I was going through a few months before him and with him. And, uh, frankly, a lot of that came from Wayne Tlarson. His wife had died 30 years before that. And so you've got this, this train that God uses and to cling to, you know, I don't know, cling to the things that you know, you, you, uh, take your life from the word prayer and, uh, learning new things like lament, uh, lamenting this and not understanding, but being, uh, coming to a place where you don't need all the understanding. You can move on and serve others. How about that? You can serve others within, uh, the umbrella of Greece grief. Yeah. Those are really helpful points. And, you know, obviously things, things for someone, yeah. As you say, in the first year and many of those things, of course, could extend past that. But have you guys seen, were there things that you looked at, like looking back in each of your cases, in each of your cases, like, you know, Mike, it's a little nearer, uh, Steve further, you're like this, this wasn't helpful, um, whether that was something you tried or whether it was something someone said or, uh, yeah, I don't know. Were there any things like that? Just, you know, I, I do. I have a couple of things I think about is that, uh, uh, what I learned on that side of, uh, a loss like this from people don't know what to say and don't know what to do and writing, putting them at ease. Isn't my job, but, uh, uh, there is an element where it's like, you know, we're all trying to navigate this and to not be, there's stupid things people say, of course, uh, there are things that are, you know, they hurtful, like, but we, we need to under grace, understand we're all struggling with what to say, do here. Uh, that that's one piece where I'm like, initially I'd be like, boy, uh, I'm on my, I'm raw in emotions anyway. And what's my side of things to, to give grace and to understand that because there's no way that we know how to navigate this with other people. Right, right. It's, it's, it's such a difficult thing. And so, uh, I learned some of that and also, uh, practically that, uh, it's okay just to say nothing and to have a kind word or little word, or just to, to, to be able to sit silently and let someone process grief and understand that there were some on the, on the flip side things I learned, like coming to someone and saying, Hey, what do you need is a little wide open. Uh, and people who just came over and did pretty amazing. And we had clean the house, bring some groceries. People were like, Hey, we're coming over a group of us to clean your house. Oh my gosh. You know, like how, how I don't have to make a decision. I don't have to do that. That's, that's kind of the, the, the other side of like, what do you learn, uh, and what do you go through? And when, when things are raw and I'm, you know, I'm at any given time liable to have, uh, broken into, uh, tears that, uh, uh, just having that, uh, is super helpful. Having, having people just step in and be there and to know that people are there. Yeah. No, they're there really concrete initiation rather than, uh, how can I help? You're like, I'm, I'm, I don't know. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm like, you know, I'm crying, I'm, I'm, I'm bummed out. And, you know, and it's like, if somebody just says like, Oh, you know, but rather be like, this is what I'm gonna do. This is what I'm gonna do. This is what I'm gonna do. Yeah. That's, that's insightful. I like the example too. Don't Donald, uh, and I spent time together last year and I, I, I in a way went after him. I really wanted, like, let's make sure we talk. I'm there. Uh, I'm so glad he's part of your life and part of your experience. And that's happened numerous different times to different levels. Like, like I have a friendship with Bill Murray, you know, that I didn't have before or with, uh, uh, Rosie, uh, to Larsik, just, uh, love her dearly. And that wouldn't have happened without us pursuing each other. But also like the, what's the common bond, this thing we've gone through that we don't fully understand how to navigate, uh, even to this day and have still have questions about, but we know we're there. Yeah. I, what you brought up about, you know, kind of open-ended, how can I help? I think one thing that's, um, challenging about that is especially when somebody's had a loss, a significant loss, they're entering into a space where they're, they're confronted with a bewildering stretch of big decisions to make, uh, dealing with, you know, that somebody who passed and there's their estate, uh, trying to figure out how are you going to like close that credit card or what are you going to do with, uh, um, these, these things that maybe your spouse really wanted to be used in a certain way in different people's lives. And so you just have, you're instantly confronted with a lot of pretty significant decisions and you're, you're in many cases planning things that you never were involved in before. Do you mean things that the, your spouse was doing? Things your spouse would have done, maybe she would have booked the, their, the flights or she would have handled the next meal coming up. And so having somebody cruise in and say, Hey, I was thinking about you and this is what I'd like to do. Like, here's a gift card. I'm sure you'll use this at some point. Those kinds of things are, are really helpful. I, I, I hear what you're saying on like people do there, they see you, they don't know what to say. They know this big thing has happened. They haven't seen you in a while. And there is this, I think people feel compelled to acknowledge something happened and to just sit there and not say anything. I think a lot of people feel like, I can't just walk past this guy and act like everything's the same compared to the last time I saw him. And so you do feel compelled to speak. And then sometimes people wind up saying things that are less than helpful. And, but you know, it's just one of the, I've been that guy. I, I've been the guy who's felt compelled to speak and had spoken up and said something that wasn't necessarily all that well thought out. So I don't know the fact that people are acknowledging that something happened and they're just trying to vocalize support. And yeah, sometimes it comes out sideways. There's a lot of grace for that. I think I'd rather have people err on the side of speaking up and letting people know they're thinking about them. And I, even when somebody fumbled through what to say, I got it. You know, I'm not always quick on my feet and I really appreciated them just trying to say something. But yeah, that's not always the most helpful thing. Here's one other thing that wasn't really helpful is I think when you're grieving, a lot of times the impulse is to go take a long walk in the woods and just kind of get alone. And I think there's a place for that. But you know, after you lose your spouse, you're rattling around in a big empty house and you're alone a lot already. And a lot of what I really needed to lean into was being with people. And so I think my natural impulse was to, I don't want to bother anyone. I don't want to be a burden to anybody. I'm just going to kind of crush through this alone. And that was not helpful. I think I had to really lean against that impulse. Yeah, I really liked how both of you guys emphasize sort of that graciousness towards people who are trying. You know, I mean, you know, both of you guys had good, really good input there about like, OK, let's be concrete. Sometimes it's preferred to do like Job's friends did at the beginning where they said nothing. But both of you guys really emphasize like, you know, people aren't going to be, people are trying and just having grace for them as they're, you know, although they're clearly not dealing with what you're dealing with, they are also trying to process through maybe they were friends with your spouse or maybe they, or just because they're friends with you, they don't know what to do next. And so they're kind of bumbling around in some, in their own way. And so like kind of having a little bit of mercy on them rather than expecting them to deliver like exactly the right words. Yeah, I can remember leaders meetings, you know, after Edith passed and the Youngs went away to Orlando to help with that church plant, we wound up raising up. Actually, we raised up the Zach and Caitlin Christian before Edith passed, but after she passed, it was just me and Zach and Caitlin sitting in leaders meetings. And, you know, obviously they know I've lost my spouse and they wanted to console me, but they're grieving, you know, especially Caitlin and a lot of tearful leaders meetings where we, you know, there's an empty chair at dinner. And so, yeah, that there are a lot of people, your wife impacted a lot of folks. So did, so did Edith. And that's part of it too, is being kind of mindful of the fact that she was really tight with a lot of these folks I'm interacting with and they're in, they're in a lot of pain. And you're not, it's hard to, yeah, right. I'm not the only guy and it's really hard to function when you're in a lot of pain. It's hard to know what to say. Absolutely. It's understanding the closeness in our home church, especially that there's this incredible impact and beyond that in extended family. What was a really cool part of a difference there is that within the body, people coming up and sharing vignettes, you know, sharing things about Maryland that had touched them or, you know, remembrances and like the level or number of those, I, you know, the people that she had contact with outside of anything I knew and the beauty of that piece of like, oh, bringing that alive, you know, bringing her alive in some ways, like with things I didn't even know about. Yeah. Oh, I got to tell you this story. Yeah. That's cool. Stuff that you never knew. Yeah. That's great. That's great. What are some of the greatest spiritual hazards for people in this position? You know, I think this is, this could be maybe one of the most difficult experiences someone has and, you know, there's like a, you know, significant, you know, there's a minefield that someone might need to watch for. So, you know, are there things you've seen? Mike touched on isolation or self-isolating, I guess, you know, isolation. There's a period of time where it's, there's so much activity. Some of it's practical, the estate issues, the, you know, the closing of accounts, the changing of things, and then, and memorial service. And then suddenly here's life. Here's new life. The new normal. The new normal. And what do I do in this context? And I'm still working. I'm still busy. I had kids at home, whatever. I mean, like different situations for everyone, but that, that it is, I tended to isolate and needed people, needed to respond to people. People still, you know, asking and things, but, oh, I'm not going to go to that meeting. I'm not going to, you know, this is too much. That was not a good thing. It was not a good, and maybe that's, there's different personality things or things that, you know, struggling with, but like to be out and to continue to give, try to give away and to see then when I would do that, that God would provide resources to me individually that I didn't even know would be there. You know, that, that, that God meets our needs in such detail, intimate circumstance. So isolation, not great. I'm glad back in my case that the, you know, YouTube and everything else wasn't out there. I wonder how much I could have been pulled into that because you're just, I want this to stop. Numb out. I want to be numb. Yeah. And I wasn't drawn to drink. I'm thankful for that. Like, but that's certainly something that was like, wow, maybe that, you know, drawn to such. A little bit extra, you know, a couple more drinks a night. Yeah. What's the big deal? I'm having trouble sleeping. I'm having, you know, up. That was my cycle too. I had, I take care of the kids and get them to sleep and couldn't sleep, couldn't sleep. And, and where does my mind go at that point? And then having clarity, I had a couple of friends who I knew I could talk to or call till midnight. That's awesome. And they said, call me. That's great. I'd say whenever somebody goes through a significant suffering, like a major diagnosis, major trauma, one of the biggest dangers I think Edith and I identified was it can kind of hijack your whole identity. I am, you know, you get on Facebook and you see people posting stuff and they're battling with, maybe they've lost a loved one or they've got a diagnosis. That's really brutal. And it kind of becomes a life defining thing. Oh yeah. And so early on, one thing Edith and I talked a lot about, and then we especially wanted to model this with the kids is, she's not a cancer patient first. Cancer is not the defining thing in her life. She's a Christian who happens to have cancer. Like a lot of people have cancer, but identity wise. And like, when you think like, what am I anchored to? This thing isn't a defining event in my life. Yeah. This is not, this doesn't touch the core of who I am. And so I think that really helped us all the way through to just kind of fight for, yeah, we're living in a fallen world and all kinds of different things can come into our lives. But I'm not going to emerge from this viewing my identity primarily as a widow. And she didn't walk through her battle with cancer, viewing herself primarily as a cancer patient. We really tried to fight for not what we weren't always able to, but I'm a child of God and I'm loved by God and my future's with God and our family's about God. And that's the defining thing about us. Not that we're a family in crisis because we have, yes, this is a thing, but it's not the thing. And I think that that's definitely a sand trap that would be easy to fall into. And you guys are, I mean, this was actually, we're just starting to talk about this and what, you know, you mentioned a couple of verses already, Steve, like what parts of Scripture have really, have you cling to, you know, early on and since? And yeah, so you just mentioned Psalm 27, 13. What other ones really impacted you? Books that were important, I already mentioned Lewis, but Alcorn's first book about heaven was just, I delved, I wrote. Oh, that's another piece that was important to me. I wrote a lot. I wrote journaling, but I also wanted to capture like almost in a mini book form, what had happened, the progression and my thinking as I looked forward to my kids growing up. And that I would have something to share with them. What ended up with that 20 page thing was I also shared it with friends, friends of Marilyn's, friends of mine. And it became something that was like important to put my thoughts out there. So Alcorn and other books at that time that were trying to, what she's in heaven and really never having delved into what that could possibly mean. I needed to understand where she had transitioned to and what her experience might be currently. It was just, it was really important to me. And so then in the Word, just seeking those things out, those glimpses of heaven, those glimpses of what's coming were really critical. I mentioned Isaiah, just that lament became real and, I don't know, soul feeding at the time. And the Psalms came alive more. I spent a lot of time in 2 Corinthians 4, and to this day, it's still a passage that I turn to that covers so much of momentary light affliction. What are we facing here? But we have a cloud of witnesses. We have the imagery in that passage about things that really touched me and that we are perplexed and that we are struck down, but we're not destroyed and we're not despairing, although touching on that, that there were pieces that really spoke to me at that time from those things. Yeah, if Job is sort of the Old Testament book about suffering, 2 Corinthians is really sort of the premier text in the New Testament about suffering. We read a lot of Alcorn's book, Heaven, and spent a lot of time talking on walks about Heaven. You and Edith. Yeah, we definitely had time to kind of reflect on what a new body would entail. What Edith was struggling with was just kind of a steady progression of disease in her bone, so really difficult for her body to function, so we spent a lot of time talking about hikes we were going to go on, and just reading up on Alcorn's really vivid depiction of different aspects of Heaven was super helpful. That's cool. The other thing that before Edith passed that we spent a lot of time thinking about is in Proverbs, one of her favorite passages. It's a really famous passage. It just says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge Him in all your ways, and He'll make your path straight. And that was really helpful to focus on because there were just so many big decisions to make, so many question marks about the near future, and so many like, what would be the right way to engage our kids on this topic or that topic in the middle of what we're facing? Who do we contact about what thing that's coming up that we're about to face? And all these different tricky decisions, it was just helpful to focus on, let's just try to stay tight with the Lord and trust Him to guide us and not try to map everything out, but just through close proximity to Christ, we believed we could get some of the guidance we needed to navigate through things. So holding on to that concept, I just want to, Lord, help me get under your direction. Help us as a couple kind of walk through this. Yeah. And then afterwards, it really helped me. It helped a lot, especially being home alone, to think about God's abiding presence, that prayer isn't just a thing I schedule and that I do, but I'm continually in the presence of God, and He's my constant companion. Yeah. And when I'm waking up, like it talks about in the Psalms, or going to sleep, or in the night watches, or everywhere I go, everything I do, I don't, you know, I can just know that I have this constant companion. I gave a talk on that at our sphere retreat with all of our folks in our home churches in my neck of the woods in Dwell, and it was just, it was really helpful. I don't know how much of it made sense to them, but I spent a couple months just really thinking about God's continual, active, constant presence in my life, which comes out all over the place in Scripture, but preeminently in Psalms. But anyhow, those are some thoughts that... Yeah, actually, that leads actually really naturally into one of the next things I wanted to ask, and so, you know, explicitly, you know, how has this deepened your walk with God? I mean, you were right there just starting to talk about that, like, feeling this kind of closeness with God. Yeah. If there's anything you wanted to add, and then I can ask Steve as well. Yeah, I'd say that was a huge one. In late summer, early fall, after Edith passed, I felt like I was kind of breaking into a deeper understanding of how present and continuously present God is in my life, and I don't know what I could add to it, and it wasn't just subjective. Some of it is, as you look at Scripture, it's a very clear teaching in the Bible. That's right. I'm with you always. There's verses like that all over the place, not just in Matthew 28. So that was huge, that the comfort of knowing that God is continually present. Mm-hmm. I love what you said, because it is, including that you said, I'm not sure how much they gathered from this when you shared that within your sphere church, is that I had nowhere else to turn kind of thing, and like learning to wake up, and the first thought is either going to be dark, or am I going to turn to the Lord quickly, and that pattern laid during grief was something that carries to now, and I don't say, I mean, my prayer life could be improved for the rest of my life as God works to perfect us, but that element is sometimes difficult for people to understand who haven't gotten to that level of depth, but I think it's, and as I've shared it, it's something that maybe is unique to such depth of grief or depth of suffering, whatever that suffering is, if we allow that to happen, and I have nowhere else to turn, and that 23 years later, I believe that's a huge blessing that God gave during that time of like, who are you going to cling to, and I'm right here, I'm always right here, and are you going to avail yourself of me, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's too bad it has to be through such things, but then it becomes difficult. I like that you said, I'm not sure if they understood, because it is, it's hard to get that across without having experienced it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. A few other things that, I don't know, I've picked up through this that I think I'll carry with me for the rest of our lives, of my life. One is that like every walk you go on, every dinner you have together, every everything that a couple does in their marriage is a finite set. You're the mathematician, right? It's only so many, and it helped me to realize, especially as we knew we were getting near the end, this walk we're on is priceless. This window we have tonight to just enjoy each other and talk, it's as valuable as anything in my life, and it just, I think it kind of helps you remember there's a lot of petty things that we would blow up a good conversation over, or that we might even put a whole relationship on the table over, and if you realize we're not going to be here forever, we're not going to be in these relationships forever, and there's only so many of these touch points we're going to have. It just, it's a good perspective. It helps you remember to keep the main thing the main thing, that this is a priceless finite thing that I'm getting to do. The other, I think the other thing that's been super helpful is when you go through something like this, it gives you a new gear to care for people like you. I could tell you were able to engage me in ways about my loss with Edith, Steve, that other people, you know, they cared, but you have a different gear. Donal has a different gear, and it's because it's their lived experience, and so yeah, that's one of the, it's a brutal passage to go through, but one of the beautiful outcomes is, man, I feel like I get it more. I feel like I can look someone in the eye who's going through something like I went through, and you know, there's just a depth of understanding, and that's, that's like a new gear, a new ability for serving people that I'm really grateful for. That's great, yeah. Yeah, Steve, I actually want to ask, you know, an aspect of your story that, you know, maybe Mike hasn't experienced yet, is you got remarried. I would wonder if you could comment a little bit on what that was like, what you learned through that, how the Lord used that, how the Lord used her. It's critical to that is, going back to Wayne Talarczyk, Wayne saying like, you know, what are you thinking? I'm like, oh boy, this was two months after the loss of my wife, and he opened my eyes with good wisdom that there's no categories here, like be open to God about this. I had like, oh, maybe in a couple years I'll think about this, and he blew that away, and from a practical standpoint, he had lived through that, and it was a good input. In addition, I had others, a good friend, Martha, who said, well, you're a good dad, but you're not a good mom. And she, out of love, she gave that good input, and it gave me a category that like there is something more. I had a three and a five-year-old, and struggling through that, but I also had a picture that like, wow, really someone's going to take on this wreck of me, and a family, and what they've gone through, and what they will go through, my children, and what I am still processing. And yet, God brought Malia into my life, and we've been married, will be 23 years this year. And it happened quickly. There's a lot involved. Everybody in the office could tell. We were all like, oh, I see the future. Malia worked at the office. What a blessing. I don't know how I would have met someone otherwise, and there's so much involved. There's so much detail, but my key, I guess, thought there without, it's a whole other story, but that is that God had prepared her in unique ways, and me to take a step of faith, and to rely on Him at the core of a marriage. I entered my first marriage without Christ at the head. Here I had a chance to, in a way, do it right, and yep, all kinds of new things that come up, but in a basis with both of our eyes on Christ, and both of us relying on things, we felt we could do that, and we've had a wonderful marriage. That's cool. One of the odd, I don't know, strange things, I don't know, strange mercies of God is that Malia went through cancer seven years into our marriage. She had breast cancer, and there was not a metastasis, but it was in situ, and she had to have major surgery. She had to go through HRT, basically, well, Tamoxifen, a wonderful, awful drug that has long-term effects, and I got to go through that with her, and I look at it that way. I got to process through that with her, and she became friends with Edith. Yeah, they really loved hanging out. Yep, and there are so many who will have gone through and will go through cancer, and so we have, again, within our community, she's been able to serve. She's been able to be on call for new diagnoses, and to reach out to non-Christians, to people who are not believers, and be a witness to them, but also be a source of information. She keeps up on things, even as she is past that, and is free and clear of cancer at this time. You never know what's coming, but it's a beautiful part of my story, because it's stunning and wonderful to be part of being in God's hands, through all different suffering, and to see Him bring something beautiful out of my...and she had to share in my grief. She went through...and again, it's not over, and she knows that, and she's learned a great deal through that, and been wonderful. Well, thanks a lot, guys, for joining me this morning, and I heard a couple of resources, and wanted to just see if you wanted to add anything to this. I heard Grief Observed, both of you mentioned...sorry, that's by C.S. Lewis, and both of you mentioned Heaven by Alcorn. I was wondering if there are other resources or other things you wanted to direct people's attention to. I read a bunch of different books, and there were great things, but those camping on those...my gosh, if people just camped in heaven. Honestly, I'd say Grief Observed and Heaven and the Psalms, which we heard. Yeah, just the word community, not living in your own head, getting around people. I think we hit most of that life-giving stuff. Well, thanks for joining us for Dwell on These Things. For more resources like this, check out dwellcc.org. Thanks.