Welcome to Dwell on These Things, a podcast by Dwell Community Church in Columbus, Ohio, where we hear stories and examples of how God is moving in the church at Dwell and around the world. So glad to have you guys back on the podcast, Kira and Kalissa by popular demand. Okay, on this episode, we're gonna talk about parenting. We're gonna talk about being moms and sort of like, is it even possible to maintain a high commitment to Christian community throughout this stage of life? So if you're listening today and you've ever wrestled a thrashing toddler into a car seat in an attempt to make it to your Bible study on time and wondered, am I doing too much? Or am I not doing enough? Then this podcast is for you. We're gonna get into some things today that I think a lot of parents feel but maybe don't always say out loud. Things like, am I allowed to want to be more spiritual right now or should I just be trying to survive this season? And then on the flip side, is my high investment in spiritual community actually good for my kids or am I somehow getting things wrong? So that's what I'm gonna talk about here today. So glad you're here. Thanks for having us. Okay, so we're all moms. I don't know, why don't you walk us through. Kira, how old are your kids? I have two boys that are four and a half and two and a half. I also have a four year old. I was like, is he four and a half? A four year old son and a two and a half year old daughter. What's your daughter's name? Cora. Cora. Cora with a K, important detail. Wow, yes, thank you. Cora with a K. Yeah, those are my kids. I also have a child, one, he's nine. That's it, that's all I get to know. Okay, so maybe let's start by talking a little bit about like, I don't know, how have you noticed your relationship with God sort of change after becoming a parent? What stands out? I mean, I think there's definitely more challenges for sure. I feel like it's really hard to get quiet time to just interact with God. I feel like it's hard to get time where I feel like my brain is all there or like I'm firing on all cylinders to be able to even know what to talk to God about or even to be able to hear from him. I think like logistically, that can be difficult. Like, when do I even spend time with God? So I think a lot of, I feel like there's definitely more challenges. It's different than like, you know, being in college and being like, I could go to college. I could go to my coffee shop and get my special drink and sit for hours and journal, you know, it's just really different now, I feel like. So I think there's more challenges, I guess. Yeah. I was gonna say, I think in some ways, it's the same in the sense that you're like making decisions to prioritize time with him. But the type of decisions you're making are different. And also it's hard to be consistent because kids are so changing all the time. So even things like consistent time with him in the word and praying, I like to journal. So I feel like I get into like a good routine, like, okay, this time of the day, I'm doing this every day and then like someone's sick. So, well, nevermind. Or, you know, I was actually thinking it's kind of like Ohio weather, like Ohio weather is just like, it's always there, but like kind of sometimes unpredictable. And it feels like my time with God is like, I'm aiming to have this time every day. And also sometimes it's just different. We'll see what happens. Or my prayer journal is like, fell asleep. I remember like having like really like, now I think I'm a little bit past it because my kids are a little bit older, but especially when you're up at night and I'm just staring at my prayer journal, like what, just writing like, what was I even talking to you about? Or yeah, fell asleep or nevermind this person's up or, you know, or I'm trying to talk to God and I'm teaching my kids, like I am still having my quiet time, so you can't talk to me yet. But like they're just at that age where they can understand that more now, so. Changing, very, like having to adapt differently. And then I think there's like the positive differences too of like certain things about the character of God, I feel like are so much more clear. Like God as our father, God's like unconditional love or like God's loving discipline. Like I think there are certain things that came into like way more clarity after having kids where I'm like, wow, I really did not, I got like a shadow of that before. But I'm like, whoa, that's, I feel like I'm understanding some of that in a really different way. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I think there's a lot of things from like having kids that I think has just changed like who I am, you know, my character, my understanding of God's character and those things. And then that's such a cool opportunity because it's like this unique life circumstance that it's not, yeah, not like you said, it's not all negative. It's like different, but hard and also really cool and really good at the same time. It's deep. Yeah. It's weirdly theological, I think, to become a parent, you know, because it seems like, oh, it's just this natural thing. Like most people do it, you know, it's just like a box you tick of your life, you know, you get married and you have kids. And yet, yeah, it's sort of this like, oh, the heaviness of like, whoa, I've been like entrusted with this and you know that I have the power to like create life and then to shape it, you know, like, right, and my choices matter, not just for my own life, but also like in the impact that they're gonna have in the rest of this small person's life, you know, it's, ooh, it's heavy. A lot of responsibility, too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you guys feel like you have images in your mind of like, okay, this is kind of like what a good Christian mom looks like? Maybe that you had like either before you have kids or even now that you're like, oh, I'm constantly sort of like comparing myself to, I don't know, this ideal in my mind. I really, I feel like I've been on this some kind of like realization of the fact that I have an ideal for myself. My ideal self and my real self are always at odds. Yeah, yeah. And that God's been asking me like, is basically revealing like, is my ideal for myself, his ideal for myself? Mm-hmm. Or is it actually just my own, what I think, like you said, like, the ideal, you know, the ideal mom is like super thoughtful about all the people in the home church, super thoughtful about parenting, you know, consistent in all these things in my relationships, my parenting, my marriage, all the things, like trying to be almost that, like we need, and this is probably our culture actually also coming into play, but it's like this pressure to be maybe extraordinary. Yeah. But like the realization of like, I'm just ordinary. Yeah, yeah. And like, that's just, that's just it, like, just ordinary and I'm, you know, striving for these different things and wanna be someone who's striving to get to know God and to be more serving to the people in my life in whatever area, like parenting or ministry and stuff. And I wanna be striving towards that, but I wanna do that under grace. And ultimately I'm like, also just struggling, you know, like, oh, just trying to show up and show up with like thoughts even is something that is harder than it was, you know, show up thoughtful and so to answer your question, do I feel like there's an ideal in my mind? Yeah, for sure. Is that from God? I don't think so. Yeah. Just like my own thing that I want for myself, you know. Do you think it's like, and I just need to like learn how to settle into like the ordinariness or is it like, well, no, that's settling. I don't know. Is it like, do you have it clear in your mind or it's like, this is all part of the confusion of being a mom? Well, I do think it's confusing. Are you kind of asking like, yeah, is like, is it settling to kind of accept like- The ordinariness. I'm just ordinary. Yeah. I think no, because I think that God is, he's the one that he's like, my power is perfect in your weakness and it's my, like, I've been looking a lot at his kind of like how he empowers people, like how he empowers, you know, what people say and the Holy Spirit, like the power of the Holy Spirit going and convicting people. And when I'm thinking about being like extraordinary or striving, it's usually tied to like my own influence or like I wanna be influential in my life. So I wanna have a certain impact. So accepting being like ordinary is actually, I think in my mind, different than just like settling for being like kind of passive. It's actually like settling for God is the one who's gonna empower. He's the one that's gonna lead and I'm just gonna be a part of that. And I don't have to be like the person. Like God is gonna use me and that should be sufficient for me. So that's kind of how I think about being ordinary. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. But I guess definitely people could use it as an excuse. Like, well, you know, just me. So it doesn't matter if I show up or it doesn't matter if I, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's like a lot of cultural pressure on parenting, like especially moms, just even outside of like the Christian thing or Christian community, just like, just thinking about like social media and all the reels that you get about like, you know, the certain kind of way that you should parent. And there's always like a million contradictory ways to do that or what your house should look like or what you should look like as a mom or what you should be doing. Some of that like rise of the trad wife, whatever on, you know, on social media. That's like, yeah, I think moms are under like a lot of pressure to like have their career, do a good job parenting, look good while doing it, have a great house and like kind of do it all. You know? So yeah, I think social media really puts that forward for sure. Some of those pressures. Or even like, there's just, people are doing so much. So you have the like, people are living, they're like five to nine before they're nine to five before they're next five to nine. And it's intense. People are doing a lot. Yeah. I was reading this interesting article on the Gospel Coalition's website called like, is parenting becoming harder? And there's this guy that wrote this book, which I have not read this book, but it's an interesting concept where basically his book is titled how culture is making parenting harder than it needs to be. And his whole point is, you know, parents have become full-time chauffeurs, secret service agents, playmates, while both parents work full-time jobs. And so the idea of like, yeah, our culture is kind of pushing forward this, you know, not only are you in your career, but then you're also everything to your kid and you have to meet everything that your kids need and even go above and beyond that to protect them and to make them comfortable. And so, yeah, it was a very interesting, yeah, article to be like, oh, yeah. I think some of that pressure is definitely coming out that that, yeah, are we making this harder than it needs to be? Yeah, yeah, so true. And a lot of that stuff's like, that's even before you add in, I don't know, like the spiritual weight of being a parent, you know, like that's just sort of like, this is functional. Are you making lunches and getting your kids to practice on time? Not to mention, are you, you know, from, yeah, again, from a Christian perspective, what kind of impact am I having? You know, what's the spiritual pulse in my home? And, you know, do my children have an interest in the things of God, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah, and I wonder if that's maybe why, like, especially moms are kind of shying away from Christian community and showing up to church is it feels like it's just like another thing on my plate that I don't have time for. So they did a Barna study in 2005 where they're actually, you know, historically women are more interested in church than men, but they were talking about how men's church attendance is actually stabilizing and specifically dads are outpacing moms now by being involved in Christian community. So they were saying like 41% of married dads attend church weekly, 30% of married moms attend church weekly. And then the lowest are single moms at 24%. So that's one out of four single moms attend church every week. And so part of, you know, their analysis of some of the statistic is parents are doing so much that they don't view community as, you know, a sanctuary or like life-saving or like this is something that helps take the load off. It's being viewed as another thing to add to the growing list of things. The already full load. That's so interesting. Wait, when did you say that's from? 2025. Oh, okay, okay. I was like, that feels really relevant, like recent. Okay, I think so. Turns out it is. It is, it is. Yeah. That's really cool. Mm-hmm. What do you guys think are some of the pressures maybe that we, I don't know, either you personally or that you hear people sort of in, you know, I don't know, maybe inside dwell, like the other moms that you know sort of put on themselves. Yeah. Any specific pressures? I guess I don't, I don't think I've, this is what happens in my own head. I like look around and I see the strengths of other moms and I'm like, ooh, I wanna be like that. And then slowly I'm collecting for myself all of these people that I wanna be like. Yeah, right, right. And because they're awesome, you know, like actually different things about people's parenting or different things about, yeah, how people are that it's like become, the pressure is actually probably satanic, like to make me feel like, I don't know, I should, yeah. That I need to be like all these other people instead of actually being like strengthened by their strengths. It becomes almost like a critique on myself, like am I, well, how about me now? Like, do I need to be all these other moms? That's not possible. So I think that would be like a pressure is like misinterpreting people's strengths as something that's actually like needs to be like competitive or like a comparison or something instead of viewing it like, wow, I'm actually so wealthy in my relationships that I have like people that I respect all around me and the different things about their parenting or their marriages or whatever. The way they think about people, the way they approach leadership as parents. I think it's like the greatest, of course, Satan would turn something that's actually such a gift, such a relief, kind of like what you were saying here, that the community of Christ is actually supposed to be a relief to parenting would turn something so good into something that's actually a criticism or something negative. So I think that's maybe a pressure is obviously comparison to other people. But it's almost like you've made this like amalgamation in your mind of like, well, it's gotta be someone who's a great host and her house becomes the hub, but also has to be like so calm, cool, and collected and can never, needs to be like extremely phlegmatic. I feel like I have these things in my mind that I pulled a little bit from Jenny Hale and Liz Swede and all these women that I'm like, okay, right. But then the danger, yeah, is that you've created this superhero Wonder Woman figure that's not real. Not real, right. Yeah. Totally. I mean, Abby, you're actually like serving and leading an adult ministry. Do you feel like there's pressures that you feel or like that you have heard from women? You know, maybe. I feel like, to be honest, I often hear like sort of the other side of the spectrum where I think there's this line, this perspective of like, well, I'm just surviving. You know, I'm gonna have to take a couple years. No one says it this explicitly, right. Like, I'm gonna take a couple years off. But like sort of where it's like I just can't, I can do less. So it's like I got my word of the day on my app that I'm, you know, like that's my like quiet time. And you know, maybe I try to like go to Mommy and Me reading time at the library. You know what I mean? Like, but that's it, you know. Like, my world is just really small now. So I, yeah, I feel like I hear, yeah, less, well, at least equally, this pressure to like, I don't know, do less or like let myself off the hook almost, does that make sense? Yeah. I don't know if you guys hear that. I've wondered if some of that's also like maybe even a response to some of that internal pressure of like, I have to be this like a Wonder Woman mom. But the reality, my real self is this other person. So then, well, then there should be no expectations or no sense of obligation or commitment because I'm in this like really difficult period of time. I feel like I can kind of toggle between the two of those things. Yeah. Yeah, where it's, I mean, especially, you know, if you're a first time mom or you have a little baby, you know, and I don't know, it's new. Everything feels like a threat to like the life of your kid, you know what I mean? Like leaving the house. And so, you know, sometimes it's like, I can't quite figure out how to like get back to home church or make it to CT. And I got all these nap times that I'm trying to sort of figure out. And so it's like, I don't know, three, four months go by and you're like, man, I, in truth, like I just have kind of been out of fellowship because I can't quite figure out functionally how to make it work. Like, again, I think that that's fairly common. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, and I think that's why, yeah, I feel like when I've thought about pressures that I might feel, they tend to relate to like more functional things about being a mom. But I think when it comes to the spiritual things, I think it is really easy to feel like, am I just sidelined during this time? Can I even do anything? Now, especially I feel like, yeah, when you have little kids, it's like, yeah, I don't know, can I even actually, can I be expected to do anything? If I even was, is that even possible? You know? Yeah. Yeah, and I think as, if that mentality grows, then it's easy to sort of like look around and be like, well, nobody else is going that hard. So I guess this is pretty normal. You know, like, I guess I just need to like do less for the next, I don't know, seven years or so. You know, like I'll make it when I can and I will catch up, you know, with my old friends or, you know, maybe some girls from Bible study when I can, but, you know, I gotta make more peanut butter and jelly. You know, like, I don't know. Like, I think we give ourselves some excuses because it's sort of easy to, because we look around and that's what other people seem to be doing as well. And it is hard. I mean, yeah, it's like, in some ways you are kind of surviving or yeah, there are different challenges that they are difficult. Like even, I was thinking like, even when the circumstances are ideal, it's still hard to be a parent. So then when the circumstances are not ideal, it's even harder. I feel like too, like when you, and maybe this is like how I felt when I first had my son, I was just like, you feel so, like your world is kind of like turned upside down because all of a sudden you have someone who you can't control, who's super unpredictable, who is attached to you forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like love him, but that was so, it feels so exposing and like vulnerable. And so I can see why, like what you were saying, Abby, like people kind of maybe pull back a little bit and are like, I'm just gonna, I just need to kind of figure this out. You know, I need to kind of like settle the things before I do anything else because I have no idea what I'm doing and I have no, this is so overwhelming. Or yeah, like I'm not sleeping or I'm not thinking. And I mean, everything feels like a threat, you know what I mean? Like, especially once you're first, you know, and you're like, can I, I can't even put this kid outside my room. They'll die. You know, like they need to be in here and I need to be able to hear him breathing at all times. You know, like that nervousness and like, if I leave the house, they're gonna get Ebola. You know, like just like these like crazy thoughts. Like, right. So there's this, I don't know. It's probably like a natural instinct to protect. My job is to keep this thing alive. And we also just get pumped with like, everything is a threat, you know? Like, and again, I think that's part of our culture, you know, like germs and I don't, the risk of, you know, like someone could snatch your child and you know, like things like that, that you're like, my job is to keep you safe and well, I'll just stay home because it's easier. At least I can pretend like I can protect you here. I sort of can, but you know. Yeah, it does feel, I see why there's that, yeah, temptation or maybe tendency. And I wonder, something I was wondering about this is kind of like, is the idea of being someone who is, you could say high commitment or like, you know, fully, fully in or whatever. Is that kind of set against parenting? Like either I'm a high commitment parent or I'm a high commitment Christian worker. I don't know if I can do both. Yeah, yeah. Or even, I was even thinking like, I think in conversations like this, like high commitment gets put against grace. Like either I can be high commitment, all in, you know, hardcore, or I can be someone who is like grace centered and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And when I'm grace centered, it's kind of like what you were saying earlier, like, I'm just taking it easy. I'm like- I have the freedom to stay home and yeah. And I was just thinking about that because I'm like, I don't think that that's biblical. I think high commitment stems from grace, like an understanding of grace and what we've been given pours out into a life of commitment to Christ in all areas. Now the actual application, like what does it look like then to be in parenting, new life stage and high commitment or whatever, however you want to call it, you know, fully committed as a parent, also under grace. What does that look like? The application is different for obviously all of us, like our life circumstances and what's happening. But I just, the idea that like, okay, I can be grace centered and have no, maybe like grace centered, meaning like I don't have to have any structures or aims that I'm pursuing because I'm under grace. I don't think that's the same as what scripture calls us to. Like, and also I don't think that scripture gives like different exceptions for parents. That's the problem is there's no like, except when you have a nursing infant, blah, blah, blah, you don't have, this is not, it's like. Then you can give up meeting together. Right, yeah, like, and it's funny, that passage about meeting together right before, he's talking about how our conscience has been sprinkled clean of guilt. And like, we're from a position of like, not being under guilt, you know, whatever, all of that, then we're stemming into like, considering how to, whatever he says, like spur one another onto loving good deeds, not forsaking our assembly together. Like, so anyways, I just think it's interesting that these things get put against each other, but I don't think that's biblical. Yeah, I think about like when Paul's like, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. So you're right, it's like, yeah, grace is the thing that actually promotes like hard work and gives us what we need to do to be able to serve our family and our community. Are there things that you guys feel like have been helpful? Okay, if like this life stage, having young kids, being a mom, it's not a spiritual pause, then I don't know, what's been helpful, I guess, in terms of like being able to maintain a view of like, this could be a season of growth and development for me instead. Or have you been able to, I don't know, maintain a view of that? I think this is where like some of the backwards wisdom of God comes into play, that like, I think in my head, I feel like, if I can give 100% or like 80%, then I'll show up and I'll serve people and I'll love people. But if I only have 20%, then there's no point. It's probably not even worth it. What would I even really do anyway? The circumstances aren't ideal. And I think what's wonderful about parenting is that shift to God wants that 20% and that he can actually like do a lot through that. The power and weakness. He's multiplying the loaves and the fish, that this is like, God is actually the one at work. And so, yeah, I think some of that is like some of those paradigm shifts. We think that to show up in a serving Christian community, I have to have a lot to offer. God's like, actually no. Or that the circumstances must be ideal and not difficult. And God's like, actually no. I need to be not tired and yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I feel like that was a wonderful thing for me in parenting, like God kind of using this time to show me those things in like a really deep way. Yeah, I don't know. The different things I learned about God or the impacts on other people or whatever, like I wasn't intentionally trying to do any of that, but like God did anyway. Or you like even the, I just think so often we try to make our lives like comfortable and to work well. And I think it's in times of difficulty and suffering and trial that God actually teaches us things about himself or just teaches us things, or even if it's not spiritual at all or like are the things we end up remembering. So I'm like, I don't remember the nights I was like, went to home church, my kids were not sick and everyone was great. And I really had a bunch of conversation. It was awesome. It's like, I remember the times that were like difficult and like what God did as a result of that or the times that were difficult or they're just were funny. Like I was thinking today about, I was doing a high school Bible study after I had my first kid in Hilliard. So I would drive there and I would be gone for like seven hours. So I would pump in the car. And I remember one time I picked up this girl, I was discipling and mentoring her. She's like 15. And so I like pulled out my pump and spilled milk all over my pants. And I was like, great, I have another five hours to be in Hilliard. And you're covered in your own breast milk. To go to high school group, yeah. Covered in my own milk. And then I'm like looking over at her and she's like five foot tall, 15 years old. And I'm like, I can't borrow any of her clothes. Just like totally screwed. But I'm like, I remember that. I don't remember the times where I was like, wow, I really went, it was easy. But I remember that. Or like, I remember vividly this time where I'm at lead in a college group. And I remember showing up to one of the ministry houses where a bunch of our girls were living and we were like hosting some party for our boys. And so the only house or the only room that was usable was their like dressing room. Like for me to go nurse. And it was like dressers, floor to ceiling, boxes, floor to ceiling. Like you couldn't walk through the room. There was so much stuff. I kid you not. And the only space was where you could open the door. That was the only space. So I remember like opening the door, closing it, going behind the door, sitting next to the wall, starting to nurse and the vent kicked. I'm right next to this dusty vent that when it kicked on, it was just like blowing all this like dusty, rank air. But it's like, I remember that. That was like hilarious, you know? So it's, yeah, I think in our heads, we have this like, things have to be circumstantially wonderful or I have to be at 80%, to really like give out and to serve. And I just feel like God doesn't work that way. Like, yeah, it's in times of difficulty and suffering that he grows our perseverance and our character and a character joy and hope or like times where we have nothing that he comes in. So I think for me, it was a real paradigm shift for like what true dependence really means. What is it that God even really wants from me? It's not me at my best, just like kick and butt or whatever. It's me being like dependent and trusting him. And I think that was like actually pretty cool. Yeah. I think that's really good because I do think that that, yeah, I think it's a lie that a lot of moms and myself, you know, at various points included, have sort of bought into. It's like, well, I'm not at full capacity. Yeah, like I'm not at 80%, certainly not at 100%. So, right, it's not even worth it for me to show up. I should just stay home. And it's like, I think that's a lie. That's not what God is asking for. Like, right, in these moments where it's like, right, here's my loaves and fishes. I think that that's really good. I remember like a lot of home churches showing up and I would just like sit with my kids. So they would be quiet during the home church teaching. And then I would like nurse them. I would just spend like all night in the attic. And I'd be like, I think I saw maybe one person. Why am I even here? But I remember like my husband actually pointed out, like that was a time where I would just sit up there and I would pray for all of the people who were like downstairs. And he was like, that has so much importance. Or like, you know, the impact of like people seeing us come and bring our kids and be committed, even if it goes really badly and they scream all night and we have to take them home earlier. Even if it's like just showing up, I think communicated a lot to other people about like our commitment to our friendships or how God is coming through for us, even when we're having a hard time. So it's like, I think sometimes, yeah, we kind of narrow that kind of impact. Maybe we feel like we wanna have everything that we should have. And I feel like God really shifts a lot of that perspective if we're willing to like say yes to God and like try it anyway. I think this can be a great time for kind of some of those like shifts to actually viewing things the way that God views things. That's awesome. That's great. Yeah, that's so cool. I was just thinking about some of the things I learned or I remember about parenting or that struck me about parenting are from being with your sister, Allie, actually. Shout out. Shout out, Allie Francis. I like was with her in home church when they had little kids. And I think it's just like really cool to think back on the things that I absorbed from them being around their parenting. And it's the things that as a mom now, I'm like, oh man, this is probably trash. Like my invite, you know, it was just like her talking about the difficulties of parenting on a random Saturday morning, we're like sitting on her kitchen floor after she hosted us on like Friday night and we hung out there and people are, she's letting people help put her kids down and she's letting us wash her dishes and clean her floor. And then we're like sitting on the floor the next morning and she's talking about the things that are hard or the things that she's not sure about and the things that are kind of just like thing. And that's like exactly what I remember about parenting is like, it's just messy. You don't really know what you're doing, but you're out here and you're showing up and you're like available. And it's normal. Exactly, exactly. Like I think maybe there's, I guess back to your point on pressure is like, I need to figure this out or I need to have it balanced or it needs to be like packaged before I show up somewhere. But that's parenting is not, I don't think we'll ever arrive at that hypothetical balance. Yeah, right. And the things that were so striking to me about being around Allie was like, she's just exactly who she is. She's just there and she's trying and that's so cool. I'm like, I wanna be like that, not totally put together, but like someone who can be known and helped. So it's awesome. Yeah, that's cool. I've heard people like, you know, other women comment on like, I don't know, almost like the charm of like, you know, showing up to some public setting, like maybe you're dropping your kids off at school or, you know, dragging them into church and the kid's just throwing a complete fit, like losing their mind, you know, like, you know, like limp in mom's arms and, you know, and like crying and mom's like really trying to like, you know, like not lose her mind. But sort of like you champion that, right? Like you're like, yeah, you're doing a good job, you know, like, I don't know. And it's almost like kind of encouraging, like that's normal. We all have, you know what I mean? Like if you only showed up, I don't know, to Bible study or to school when your kid like was in a good mood and like wanted to be there, you would never go, frankly. Like, yeah, but it's like, okay, I'm gonna be faithful. I'm gonna, you know, like this is normal. This is the life, this is this log and we're in it together, it's good. Yeah, and I think there's like another like tension or question that I think we can have too of like, is commitment to Christian community gonna be like harmful for my kids? Or like, if I do end up going when it's difficult or when it's messy, is that gonna be harmful to me or to my family? I feel like I've felt that way a lot of times, you know, when you're like, you know, discipling someone and your kids are constantly trying to get your attention and you're like, I'm so sorry, I'm like kind of ignoring you because this girl is like crying at my kitchen table. I just feel like there's been so many times where I'd be like, all right, boys, like I have to go work on a Bible teaching. They're like, ugh, you're always working on Bible teaching. And you feel bad as a parent. Like, am I just ignoring you to like go do this ministry over here? Or it's like, is it gonna be harmful to my kids to bring them to Oasis where a bunch of other kids are sick, you know? Or is it gonna- Expose them to Ebola. Right. My mom's gonna be so sad that I said that. She loves Oasis and it's awesome. But you know, yeah, is it? Yeah, like when I put them down at someone else's house and I wake them up in the middle of the night, is that harmful to them, to their sleep, like to their health? I feel like a lot of those things, I feel like we have to wrestle through. But again, I feel like that's where God's like backwards thinking comes into play where it's like, yeah, it's better to give than receive. Or like, my food is to do the will of the one who sent me. Or like, it's actually gonna be beneficial to our kids for them to see us giving out and to do that with them too. I think it's really cool. I mean, because the reality is, of course it will come at a price. You know, like if I'm like, well, you know, it's Thursday night or it's Monday night and we're going to home church and you're loading up the pack and play and you're showing up early and you're trying to get your kid down, you know, like before the teaching starts and then you have to wake them up at like 11.30 and go home and they're like sort of crying and you feel kind of bad. Yeah, the sense of like, this is so disruptive. And what's the like neurological effect gonna be? Probably nothing, you know, like they don't remember, no. Yeah, but like the value of like, but continuing to show up and, but I do think that, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times people are like, I'm not even willing to consider that kind of disruption. You know, like it would throw my kids off and it would ruin sleep and that, and then I'll be all out of sorts. So no, we're not doing that. You know, we'll take a couple of months off or we'll toggle, my spouse and I will toggle attendance. It's just, you know, some of these things, these commitments to community, they're just too disruptive and I'm not willing to do that. Yeah, and again, you're right that there is a sacrifice. I am paying a huge sacrifice when I have to, yeah, drag my kids in the multiple pack and plays to a ministry house and, you know, find somewhere to put them in some boy's room. You know, it's like, yeah, it is a huge sacrifice. That's true. But I think like we're a lot more resilient. Our kids are a lot more resilient than we think. And again, I think that comes back to that. Like we want to protect our kids. We want them to have a nice life and an easy life and a comfortable life. And I'm like, I actually think they're pretty flexible. They're pretty resilient. Kids are plastic. Yeah. And yeah, I'm like, I feel like again, when we do stuff like that, it communicates to them. We are willing to sacrifice our own comforts for the sake of our relationships. And like, what an amazing value I feel like to pass on to our kids when they get older. I mean, my parents were in a home church. They did all of that with me. And I feel like that gave me this sense of like, people are important and ministry is important. And this is the most important thing that we could do. And, you know, yeah, we should sacrifice everything to be involved with the work that God has given us. And so I'm like, we have such a unique opportunity, I think, to pass that along to our kids in such a really cool way. Yeah. Yeah, something I was thinking about is maybe part of the difficulty of this kind of decision making, like, oh, you know, yeah, what do I sacrifice when? Like, should we go to this thing tonight? Should we not go? Is like we, in this season, it's easy to kind of forsake our like larger life aim for the sake of the urgent. And so we start making decisions based on what is urgent. Instead of, yeah, like, we make decisions based on what's urgent instead of what's important. And sometimes, of course, I really hope, I really hope we're not coming across as like, oh my God. It's nuanced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're covered. We're covered. We're in church. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, no. Yeah, of course, like, please. Yeah, of course there's nuance, of course. But I think in this stage, it's just so easy to make decisions based on, yeah, the urgent, what's right in front of me today instead of what I want for my life as a whole. So like in our house, we've been talking recently a lot about like, what do we want at the end of our life? Like, what do we want our, what's kind of like our family mission statement? Or like, what's our family direction? Like we obviously are here, like we wanna love God and love people. Okay, what does that look like in real life? And so like one of those things we've been talking about is we wanna be able to say at the end of our life, like we lived a lifestyle of discipleship. So then what that boils down to is like, okay, at this current stage of my life, when these opportunities to come up, they come up that like we're gonna disciple these people or like make these sacrifices in our schedule to like, you're gonna go get this time with this person or I'm gonna get this time with this person. We're making that decision based, trying to zoom out and make decisions based on does this thing contribute to this larger life aim? Good, I love that. Or is it just kind of like, we're making decisions on the fly? Like, well, do we feel like we can do this today? And I think it's tempting in this stage to just make decisions based on what's in front of me today instead of having this larger, like I am committed to fellowship. Like that's what my commitment is. So today, regardless of how long it takes me to get to this thing, I'm gonna go. Like actually one time after I had my daughter, which my daughter is a different flavor of baby than my son was. It's a really nice way to put it, okay? Different flavor. We had no idea how good we had it with my son. And then my daughter came around and we were like, ah! Yeah. And there was one night, it was my night, I was gonna go to CT. My husband's gonna stay home with the kids. And I was like, cool, like, you know, we got it. I'll figure it out when I'm gonna leave. And then I was trying to leave my house. I mean, over an hour, I was trying to leave my house. It was like, you try to leave and then you get puked on and then you clean that up, then you get pooped on. And then after that, and it was just like, God, and I even am trying to go. I have every reason to not go. I have been trying to make it. And by the time I got there, it was like teaching was long over. Like, and it wasn't, I just was so frustrated because I was like, God, I was really trying to be here. Am I a joke to you, God? Yeah. I'm like, and of course, you know, you show up and people have no clue the battle that you just endured. Where have you been? Yeah, it's like, God, I was trying so hard and like, it just, yeah. Basically, on those nights, you're just like, I have every reason to not go. I miss the teaching, I, you know. But because it's easier, I feel like, to make the decision. Like, it doesn't matter, like I'm still showing up because we have these like larger things that like underline our decision making. Like, I'm going to be committed to this thing because I think it's a biblical truth. So I'm gonna try to live this out in my current life phase. Even if I'm showing up like, wait, you know, wait, whatever. So anyways, how we make decision, like how we go about making decisions has been something we've been thinking about in our house a lot. That's cool. We were talking in my women's Bible study in our cell group about the concept of like goal hierarchies. That's cool. If we don't have like a hierarchy of goals in our lives, then right, we just sort of are reactionary, right? To whatever's happening, the urgent needs of the moment. But right, if I can sit down and sort of come up with this established, no, right, this is what my life is about. These are my priorities. And then how do these sort of urgent, these day-to-day things, are they fitting into this? Are they not fitting into this? Like, do I maybe need to eliminate some of this? Actually relieves a lot of pressure. Like, no, I know, right. No, it's Monday, I'm going to home church because this is a priority. You know, like Christian fellowship is a priority to me. Yeah, so even when it's inconvenient, I think that's great. And even zooming out to be like, what is God asking me to do? Totally. What does he want me to do? I think there are like a lot of things early on, I realized like, wow, there is a lot of things I'm committed to. I really don't need to be committed to, particularly my phone, my screen time. Like, I feel like I wasted so much time on my phone and then I'm like, man, I'm so tired. I have no time to spend with God. I'm like, no, I do, but I'm just choosing to commit to this thing that God does not want me to commit to. But yeah, it's like, I don't know. I feel like there are a lot of things that we would do that might have seemed crazy to other people, but it was like, God wanted us to go love this person or go teach this thing or go serve in this way. And then trusting like, if God is really into this, he's going to give me what I need, even when it's difficult. So yeah, God is into Christian community. Like you were saying earlier, like let's not forsake meeting together. So God is going to give me what I need. And if I never, I feel like parenting is a lot of that, like I'm trusting and I'm living by faith. So if I'm never stepping out in faith, I'm not going to get to see God's provision in a real way. And you know, it's not always got God's provisions like flashy or something like, I show up and I make it. And now I'm, you know, some, for some reason, really energized. It's like, not really all like that, but yeah, I think you're right. It's like, if God is asking me to do this, if this is something he cares about, he's going to give me what I need to be able to actually do this. And it's going to be better for me and for my family to say yes to God and live in faith than live based on, you know, these other things. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like, he promises daily bread. It's not like he promises a daily monster energy drink. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's bread. It's a little unglamorous, but it's enough. You know, it's going to sustain you. You're going to stay alive. Yeah. It's going to meet your needs in the moment. Okay. So you were talking about discipleship. I guess I'm wondering like, regarding discipleship in general, do you feel like your views of discipleship have changed since becoming a mom? Yeah. I don't know. I think it's like what you were saying earlier, Kira, about, you just show up with 20%. I think I just have been, it's exposing to be like, wow, I really haven't thought about you. You know, you show up like, like how, God, it was, I just think sometimes I'm like, oh my God, there was a time when I felt like I had, like I came in, I felt like I have something concrete to offer you. Now people are rolling up to my house and I'm just like, You're like, which one are you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'm just like, oh God. But I think that God is, he uses that to be like, oh, here's how you're, here's how you rely on yourself, you know, in these interactions. And so it's made me think a lot about my own limitations. And maybe I'm less, you know, I'm like less thoughtful. Some of it also has been, so some of it's actual theological things, you know, relying on myself. Okay. God is like exposing that it's about him, not about me. Or it's about exposure to his word, not to my own, what I think is best in my head. Cause I got nothing going on. Like exposing people to the word, exposing people to, or just being like, I don't know what to do. So let's actually just pray about this. And like, that has been a helpful thing. But then also functionally, I just had to get more creative in discipleship. Like something I would do a lot with the girls that I meet with is like, we use audio messages throughout the week to send each other updates about life. Like what was that app during COVID that everyone was using? Where you get the little teeny tiny video snippets. I don't know. Edit this. Okay. Okay. Well, it's like, do you know what an audio message is? Wow. Thank you. Thank you for clarifying just what it sounds like, right? It is. I don't use them because I'm too cool, but okay. You should. Okay. You should start. It's really a vibe. I'll show you how to do it later. It's super helpful because I'm like, okay, in real life, our time now is, you know, maybe what you can cover. Of course, it matters if we have the kids with us or not, whatever. But the amount of things you can cover or the things you can talk about are maybe more limited when you have kids around. And so we've just been trying to be creative, like using other things to stay up to date. To supplement. Yeah. So I think mainly, I guess to your question about like how's discipleship changed, I'm like just way more aware of like, oh God, it's just me. And I have nothing. So like, please God. But functionally, I think there's a lot of creative ways to work around like some of the functional tricky things about discipleship and parenting at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it can be so easy to be like, oh yeah, discipleship is again about me coming in with all these really thoughtful things about this person and all these really good questions, these things I remember. And like when I'm pregnant nursing, I don't remember anything. And yeah, I love that point that it's like getting, finding creative ways to study scripture and discipleship I think is so key. Cause like, yeah, they don't need to hear my dumb thoughts on things. They need to hear God's thoughts on things. And yeah, I feel like that was like a game changer for me in my discipleship to be like, how can we just, if the only thing we do is get in the word and then they saw my kind of crazy chaotic family and there's something they learned about God from that, then that is like worth it, you know? Cause I was thinking back to like, you know, I was deciphered by Chris Risley when her kids were really little too. And I don't really remember like the advice she gave me on things or the kinds of questions she asked me. Like I remember us studying the word and I remember watching her parent. And like that was the thing that I think really molded me. Yeah. That's cool. So yeah, it's like, again, people coming into our homes and experiencing that can be like a really cool thing. Yeah. I think especially for younger women. I mean, yeah, we're in the college ministries. I think showing people what like godly family can actually look like, I think is like a huge, a huge thing, but yeah. What about discipling your kids? Do you guys have thoughts on that? Do you feel like we're not quite there yet or your kids are kind of young? I don't know. Yeah, I feel like they're young, but like at the beginning of like really starting to absorb things. It is, I just think it's cool. I'm like, how cool is that to have little people that you can like teach about God in your own house, you know, so cool. And also such a responsibility, but I'm like, well, that's cool. I mean, they out of anyone we'll see are just like who we are and how I feel like so much of a discipleship with your kid is like, just you're all day long. Like how am I responding to conflict? Am I apologizing? Am I, what am I teaching you about that, you know? And something small that I don't remember where I heard this, but I think it was some author was talking about using regular things in your day to tell people's stories about Christ, tell your kids stories about Christ. So it's in something small that I've been trying to like remember to do. Like I was like washing their feet. They're dirty, they're washing their feet or something. And so I'm like, oh my God, okay. Did you know that Jesus washed his friend's feet? You know, so we're like, it's like small stuff that in your day to day with really little kids that I feel like it's helpful for me as a reminder of like how to incorporate spiritual things into our regular things that we're doing. Ordinary, some might say. Ordinary. Ordinary. Ordinary things is just, yeah, storytelling related to the things that we're doing. That's been like a fun thing to think about. I totally forget about it all the time, but when I remember it, I'm like, oh yeah, that was a good idea. Yeah, it's cool. Well, I think this is partly why like when we do ministry, it's like not harmful to our kids because we can like pull them in to do it with us. Yeah. So like, I remember we would drive to the park and my oldest son, Hugo and I, we would like pray to meet people at the park. And we actually ended up meeting this woman. She ended up coming into adult CT. She ended up accepting Christ. And I have this cute video that keeps coming up on my Google photos of Hugo dancing around when I told him that she like started a relationship with Jesus. But it was like, that started with like, we would just pray together to meet someone that we could like share Jesus with. Or, you know, when we drive to home church, we pray as a family for like the teaching. And my oldest son has now started to pray that like the new people coming would understand Jesus. And it's like so cool to like do that with him. Or, you know, when one of the girls are crying on our couch or whatever, he'll come up and try to, okay, maybe you could ask her like what's going on in her life or when we're praying with a disciple, do you guys want to pray with us? So I think it's actually been kind of fun, like including them in on some of that. And so, yeah, again, it's like, this is like ministry and family actually like go so well together that like when we're doing these things, it actually communicates a lot to our kids. Really cool. I remember like the first real conversation that Hugo and I ever had about the gospel was he came to our home church baptism and he watched me teach and he watched a couple of people get baptized. He watched me pray. And then after he asked me all kinds of questions about, like he initiated asking questions because he's like, you were up there and you were praying, you were teaching, like this person got dunked in the water and like, what is happening? And we had this like really cool conversation about the gospel. And so I don't know, it's like that kind of stuff. I feel like they do soak in like when we're doing stuff like that, just being there. And then you have this, did you have my son yesterday? I have this new friend over that I'm trying to get to know. I think this was yesterday or the day before. He tells her, I don't know how to get to heaven. I was like, God, you're failing me. What have we been talking about for your whole existence? Anyways, to just keep you humble, you know? Or you think you're about to have like a really deep conversation with them because they have like some big question and then they're just like, yeah, can I have a snack? Absolutely, endless. Talking to a mom at the park, they start fighting on the playground. Oh my God, cool, cool, cool. But it does feel like these are the small moments that like eventually it's the like big, consistent things across our life. They're seeing, yeah, these are our priorities. This is what we value. Hopefully those are the things that will stick with them. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like in, I don't know. You can tell me if it's like this in your ministry spheres. Like you guys are some student ministries, but you know, in the adult group, it's like, and I think that this is right to sort of view your kids as your disciples. So it's like as you're sort of considering, okay, yeah, how much can I say yes to? How much can I sort of take on? Can I study with four different people? And it's like, well, I've already got, I have to sort of take my kids into account. There's a commitment and a responsibility to influence and to invest there. And then I think, yeah, what else can I give? But I think we do have to sort of, yeah, right, like trust that like, well, this obviously is a responsibility given to me by God and it, right, it's different when they're little. My son is a little bit older now. So it's like, we have content and, you know, we can just like read the Bible together and we can have quiet time together, you know, stuff like that, that. Yeah, but still, I think that's right. You know, like they should be, no, this is my disciple. Yeah, and I think sometimes we will have to make sacrifices in order to make sure that we are like trying to really love our kids and engage them. Like I had to step out of the high school group that I was leading, which I love and it's so fun, but I'm like, oh, we do not have enough right now to do this. Or there's been other opportunities we've had to say no to. So yeah, I think it's definitely true. Like we don't wanna swing the other direction and just be like, we're gonna be all focused on everyone else and not our family. And your kids get your leftovers. You're like, well, that can't be right. You know what I mean? Right, I think that's definitely true. But yeah, I think there is a way to be able to do a lot of that, where you're investing in your kids and teaching them about the Lord and you're also being sacrificial with the people inside and outside of your home. I feel like that would actually be like true commitment to Christ and true high commitment is I am being sacrificial and others focused in and out of my house. I like that definition. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah, and maybe it does. I think, I feel like this involves asking God often, like what does this look like in this stage of parenting and ministry? And then, you know, fast forward a couple months. What does this look like in this stage? You know, I feel like we're just always reevaluating or even like this past fall, we realized like, oh my God, we actually feel like we have a little bit more bandwidth, just like it struck us one day. We were like, oh my God, we're not completely sleep deprived. And then it was instead of, it was just cool. It's like, okay, that's an opportunity. Like I know at different points, we'll feel more kind of like bandwidth is small again. And so, but for now, what does this look like to use this time, however long this is to be other centered, like you were saying, the sacrificial in and outside of our house, you know, what can we give a little bit more to or whatever? And so it's just always changing. It is. And I think that that sort of forces you, I mean, I feel like for me, it forces me to, I feel like if nothing else, having, being a parent, being a mom, that's like, yeah, forced me to like maintain a very short leash with the Lord because I'm so aware of like, if I don't, you know, like if I'm not spending time with him, if I'm not, you know, actually like reading scripture, if I'm not setting aside time to pray and to converse with Jesus, man, it's like, I'm the worst, you know, like I'm the worst at home, you know, like, and so it's like my kid gets the worst version of me before my friends do. And, you know, so it's like, oh, it behooves me as a parent. It behooves him as my kid for me to like, maintain a closeness with God, right. And, oh, you're going to give me what I need when he's four, when he's five, when he's six, because it changes, you know, like, so, okay, today, it's like, oh, it's a little foot-washing analogy, you know, it's a story that's charming, you know, and when they're 15, it'll be something entirely different and how am I going to know? Jesus is going to tell me, right? Yeah, and I wonder how much of like Satan's design too is, in all of the pressures and tensions we just talked about of being a parent to like that time with God is the thing that gets shoved to the side when it's like, that's actually the thing that we need to be a good spouse, to be a good friend, you know, to be a good parent is like, I need to receive the love of God so I can give it away and I need to abide so I can actually have something to offer people. What's it like for you guys, we haven't talked much about like, as a spouse, like what's it like for you guys to sort of navigate some of this stuff with your partner? I don't know, like, do you guys have like, regular sort of conversations about this or what's that like on your team? I just feel like I'm so evil to my spouse. We're like, yeah, in theory, we have these great conversations, mostly we'd be like, you're not doing enough. But again, like, I mean, I think that is, again, some of the difficulty and tensions of being a parent is to look around and be embittered at the people around you for not helping you enough. So there's ways that that can come out in our home churches too. People should be more considerate or accommodating or whatever. But I think for me, that really came out on my husband as I'm just like, I'm so stressed out and overwhelmed and you blah, blah, blah. And then I'm looking at all these reels where you're like, yeah, and your husband isn't doing anything. You should go yell at them like, yeah, I should. So I feel like, yeah, it was awful. But yeah, I think, so that was an interesting, sorry, this is really not an answer to your question. But I think that was a difficult, an interesting challenge. I think for me was viewing it like, yeah, Mateo and I are a team. We are on the same side. And he's also someone I need to be like sacrificial with. It's not just like, well, now you just need to fill in all the gaps of what's difficult about being a parent. And then you just need to meet all my needs. And then you need to give me what I need so I can be able to do this thing. But I think for me, it was a lot of like conversations that we had had about how can, yeah, how can I be sacrificial when it comes to him? And how can we talk about these things in a way it's not like contentious. Is it like the, I don't know, the temptation to like scorekeep, like, well, I did this, that, and the other thing, and where are you and what are you doing? Like that sort of. Oh, totally. And I think our culture definitely has this, things in the home should be 50-50, which I think is actually a wonderful trend. From before where the woman did everything, and the man works, obviously this is a stereotype. Cracks a beer. Yeah, that's right. Watch TV, puts his feet up. So I think that's actually a wonderful thing. And the stats are reflecting this, that men are actually more engaged with their kids than they used to be. But I think some of that line of thinking doesn't account for like sacrificial love. Like sometimes I'm gonna choose for it to be 80% me and 20% you because I'm trying to help you out or because I'm trying to be sacrificial. Or if like, yeah, if I'm scorekeeping or keeping a record of wrongs, I'm like, that is like, I think was like so consuming in my mind and like really unloving, sinful, like not good. So. Yeah, and it's kind of weird because if you choose to stay home, like in our house, you know, like I chose or we chose for me to stay home. The kids, it's unrealistic that it would be 50-50 cause like I have, you know, 40 to 50 more hours with them a week. Totally. So like. There's no 50-50 there. That's not 50-50. But I mean, I agree. I think it's like a positive trend that people are wanting to share things equally. Like we have that value in our house. Like we, I want, like my husband wants to be confident with the kids in the same way that I would be confident with them. You know, like it's a cool goal. I was just thinking, I feel like it gets to be problematic in marriage when the goal is we need to have balance instead of the goal is my attitude needs to be to have the attitude of Christ. That's right. Like from Philippians two about like, okay, well Christ came and laid down his life and it wasn't about him. And so if my goal is to have the attitude of Christ, then what that looks like in those weird imbalanced moments is like, my, this is fine. Like I'm, this is what I'm aiming towards. You know, the goal is to like submit to one another, like have this kind of like, we're working together on a team. Like you were saying earlier, like this is my team. But it's, yeah, it's confusing when you, maybe even like at different stages, like fresh postpartum or you're nursing and it's like truly impossible to, there's not, there's not 50-50. No. Right, when you have a nursing kid. Yeah. And like you've, even if it's like, oh yeah, well you take the kid, cool. Well, if you have the kid, then I have to pump. Yeah, right. And I'll be back in two and a half hours. Yeah, like I'm on a, yep. Like I'm on a 24-7 thing. So obviously it changes so much when you're nursing and then like fresh postpartum and then nursing and then your kid is a little bit older and whatever, but yeah, it just feels like if the goal is balance, then, or the perfect 50-50, like that's just hard. And really it's like, right, what it should be is like, look, I'm committed to 100 regardless of what you're doing, which is hard. So hard. It's so hard not to keep score. But right, if it's true that God has met my needs, filled me with his spirit, then right, that frees me up to like give 100 regardless. Yeah. Or yeah, I feel like there is like really wonderful things too about having Mateo where I feel like he would help me to like think about being under grace or he had a really good thing where he was like, well, just what we're gonna do is we're gonna try. That's so even if our circumstances are crazy or whatever, what we'll do is we'll just try. So if we have to go home early, we go home early, whatever. Why don't we just try to show up? Which was actually a wonderful, very practical, wonderful thing I would highly recommend. Really great. Yeah, kind of like low stakes, whatever, we'll just try. But you know, it's also like, and yeah, it's nice having another person talking through some of this. I feel like Mateo is really good at like the mission statement of our family. I think he's really thought about stuff like that. But you know, it's also like, here's another sinful person. Totally. Now we're doubling ourselves. It's like now we're having to figure out how to navigate. And I think there's additional difficulties and things that come with that too, that you have to figure out how to navigate. But again, I think that's also an opportunity. Yeah. And I feel like I think God showed me a lot of stuff about sacrificial love through all that, that I feel like was it just in such a different way than like when I lived with other Christian women. Yeah, right. Totally. Yeah. It's like such an opportunity. Like I think it, parenting and then your marriage, like it's such an opportunity to be so selfish. Like Arshton is just so exposed. I have a friend who she says, parenting really brought out the best in her spouse and the worst in her. I'm like, oh my God, that's awesome. So true. Yeah. It just, it exposes us so much. Then it's like such a gift the same time to have, to be able to have like that dynamic. So I don't know. I liked your point here about how we, we can like take our own selfishness or like bitterness really at anyone around us. So that might be at the spouse or that might be at the other people, this person that's not doing enough or this person that doesn't understand or it's easy. It's like an easy time to feel misunderstood or unseen. Why do I have to nurse by this dusty vent instead of having a nice comfortable chair? Yeah. Basically I think it's easy. Yeah. It's just easy to turn or to bring out our sin. Right. And again, I mean like some of that is Satan's design too. Is to, yeah. Instead of God using this as an opportunity for us to learn things about him and learn things about, you know, his character, the way he views things to turn it inward and to bite and devour one another and to be self-focused and whatever. So outside of like, okay, there's you and your partner. I don't know. What do you think are some of the benefits, I guess, of like the larger Christian community, you know, as you've navigated being a mom? Yeah. That's it. That's a great question. I don't know why I'm always like doubling up. Yeah. I think what Calissa was saying earlier about the like how sometimes we can feel really bad when we look at other moms who are around and be like, oh, I'm not like them. And I think it was really helpful for me recently. I've been like, wait, but my kid gets to be around them. So like they actually get to benefit from these wonderful qualities of these other men and women that I'm around. Or even the fact that like I have other kids for my kids to like their sin to come out on and that they get to in their friendships work through things like forgiveness and grace and conflict and all of that, I think is actually really wonderful. So I think early on in parenting, I was like, I don't want my kid to be the one that like, you know, says something to this other kid that's mean or punches this other kid or whatever. But I think it was actually cool like changing that to be like, wait, this is a wonderful opportunity for them to learn these things now instead of like later when they're adults. So I feel like there's so much just relationally in Christian community that's like so awesome and wonderful. Like, I don't know, working out some of those like relational sinfulness, whatever, learning to be under grace, having an awesome like support system I think is really cool. Yeah, when I had my kids and I, again, I feel like this is kind of hilarious. I'm like, well, I've only been a mom for four years. So, you know, brand new. But right when I had my kids, I was in home church with two other families that were also having their first kids. And it was like the best thing that ever happened to me. It was so cool. It was just so special to have, to go through life transitions at the same time, kind of what we're saying, like it's easy to feel unseen in different things. But when people are in the same life stage, you're like, you get it, you know, you get it. It was just so special, like such a gift, such a provision to be going through those things at the same time. But then also to have like, to your point, care about like, let's just show up, let's just try, was so helpful. I like both of these families, like they had kids like just a couple months before us. And so they're, you know, a couple months ahead and that was so helpful to watch them. Like they're just trying, they're showing up, they're gonna try to show up, they're gonna bring their kid and they're gonna take them home and they're crying, you know, like whatever, whatever you have to do. But I feel like the modeling, like watching other parents try things or, you know, in different ways, like they're totally different from me. We're not the same types of moms, but watching them try and stay committed to community, stay committed to the truth while going into this new life stage was just so, such, such a gift. And then to be able to talk about the hard things or the, you know, fun things together was just really special. But then even since then, like right now in my current group, well, I guess the group that I just, we just planted our home church this week. So this is kind of confusing to me. Yeah. Okay. So last week, last week or whatever, whenever I was in my old group, it was a different situation. Like we didn't have the same kind of like little kids with us, but God, I feel like was showing me, I'm gonna provide for you anyways in this community, even if there's not someone who's in the same life stage, my provision isn't limited by that. So he provided through other people, you know, or friends outside of my home church that are in life stage. I have relationships that I'm keeping with young families, but I'm also, he's able to provide through other people who are not in the same life stage and that is helpful. Yeah. You know, you know, people's, it takes a village, right, to withdraw. And so sometimes, you know, there's the convenience of like my peers or the people around me that are already in the community in which I'm plugged are at the same life stage. Everybody's having babies. At one point I was in a group that had nine pregnancies at the same time. Oh my God. That was the most I've ever, like I was like, this is crazy, that's in the water. But sometimes it's not like that. I guess so then, okay, the question is, yeah, what's our responsibility? Do I build this community? Do I sort of, am I just waiting around for God to like sprinkle other parents into my path? I don't know. Or what have you guys done practically? I feel like my experience just leading a college group, like we're the only family with like kids in our group. Okay. And there's only like one other married couple. So our group is like really young, purely college. Not your peers, per se. Yes. So I feel like it takes more work to just get that scheduled time with the other women and my other friends. I have like a couple of play groups I'm in and that time is like really, really awesome. But I also feel like, man, sometimes it can feel like a tendency to feel like, well, but this community doesn't really do anything for my family if they're in a different life stage. But I'm like, there has been so many wonderful things about being with a bunch of college students that we get to benefit from, that they get to benefit from. Or like my kids have friendships with them. And so there's things that they're learning from them and interactions that they have, like ways my kids can serve them. That's really fun. Okay, this is really funny, but I realized that actually last week when there's this guy in our home church named Christian and Hugo has been calling him Christian Bunions. He's been like, Christian Bunions. And to his face, it's like a joke nickname. And so we pull up to home church and he's like, it's Christian Bunions. And I just laughed. And then I was like, oh, you actually have a friendship with him. It was such a stupid way to realize that. But there were conversations that they would have together or like an actual friendship or different things about him that he learned or that he experienced. And so it's like, even though they're not necessarily our peers, they have such a wonderful impact on me and our kids or give me advice on my parenting all the time, give me insights, come babysit, which is wonderful. So I don't know, I think that's also cool. So I think it does take more energy to like hook up with other people who also have children. But at the same time, I think the community we're still in is like really wonderful for our kids too. It's nuanced. It's good. It's not the black and white. Yeah. I was curious on if you guys had resources that were helpful. Okay. That you could recommend. Here's a plug. For the parenting meetings that they do here once a month on Wednesday mornings. Yep. On, I don't know, a variety of different topics, but I can still remember, I haven't gone now in years, I've sort of aged out of it. But when my kid was young, like first five years basically of being a parent, I would go as much as I could. There's free childcare, plug. But also some of the topics were like, yeah, I can still remember. I still remember Carrie Walker talking about, imagine your kid when they're 25 years old. What are they gonna say about growing up with you as a parent and in your household? Kind of like what you're saying about that mission statement. It was like, oh my God. Man, that was so helpful. Things like that. So I think that that is a great resource. Awesome. Yeah. All I can think of is, did you guys listen? Did you read Women Who Risk from last episode? Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. I really did. I did not. I did. Because I hate biographies. God. Wow, do you really? She does. I really do. We had a long conversation about it after. What a weird thing to hate. People. I just. I'm exposed. Yeah, well, I did it by the next podcast. Actually, you can't come back. Yeah. Sorry, that was. This is a prereq. I didn't realize it was homework. Wait, does that tie in? It clearly was. No, it doesn't tie in. She's gonna plug it again. Just in case people forgot. It was just a test about resources. Like, you know, I gotta say, does it even matter if we discuss them? Are people gonna read them? Resources are only as good. I read, I read, I read Jesus Through the Eyes of Women, and it was phenomenal. Wow, okay, all right. It was awesome. All right. Well, you're halfway there. You are, good job. Don't be Calista Standards. The ideal and the real are still out. It was charming. From a literature perspective, it left something to be desired. The writing is sub-par. Like, cursed biographies. But man, yeah, so heartwarming. What a great read. Yeah, very cool. Very encouraging. I think my favorite parenting book is Boundaries with Kids by Cloud and Townsend. It's great. That's my quick plug. Kira, what's yours? Okay, this is really unrelated, but have you guys heard about The Brick? Oh. For your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's this little app you can get on your phone, and you buy this little brick thing, and you can lock your phone down, and you have to tap this little brick thing to unlock your phone. That has been the best thing that has ever happened to my family. And my husband got a dumb phone. Really? So between the two of those things, I feel like that's been the best thing for my time with God. That's been the best thing for interacting with my kids. It's been the best thing for my discipleship, just locking my phone down. That's so cool. So not a resource or a reading or a teaching, but that's been awesome. Yeah. And yeah, again, I just feel like for me, I'm like, there was just so much time I was wasting on my phone that was causing more problems in all of these things we talked about than actually helping any of that. So get a brick. They're awesome. It's like a little, it's like an object. It's like a little square that you can put on your fridge. Wow. And it's sweet. Yeah, I don't have any social media for that reason. I was like, what am I doing? How much of my life am I wasting? Yeah. Well, and then I'll find stuff even if I'm not on social media. So I'm just, oh, I'm looking through pictures on the weather app. Or like, what am I on IMDB website? Or like, I love to read on my phone. Reading is like my favorite thing I ever do. So I will read all day and not talk to a single person. And it's really problematic. So yeah, this one's really great because I can basically lock down my phone except for like my prayer app and like my maps and like that's it. And your photos. Take pictures of your phone. I can take pictures, but can't look at them. Ooh, that's cool. So I have the camera open, but the photos app is not open. Okay. So it's awesome. It's been really great. That is awesome. That's a great resource. Yeah. And I feel like taking advantage of Oasis too is really awesome. I think Oasis is great. The kids program at the adult CT is the childcare is sweet. It's a learn about God. It's awesome. Oh, and Discipleship Cafe. Yes. Oh my God. Shout out to those people who ever created that idea. Thank you. I feel like that kept me sane when my kid was little. So cool. To have like three hours uninterrupted. Yes. I feel like a human, it was like a shower for my brain or something. You know, like I feel cleansed. It's so cool. Or like a lot of gyms even around town will do like childcare that you'll pay a couple bucks for. And I was telling Abby earlier before we started the podcast that I've been taking my youngest son there every day to prepare for this, to prepare for like a teaching, blah, blah, blah. And I was just feeling so bad about it. But it's like, he's fine. He's totally fine. He's not harmed in any way by it. But it's also been so helpful for me to get that time to just like spend with God. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff out there. Sweet. Be creative. Yeah. All right, thanks guys for coming back on. This is the end of this Dwell on These Things podcast. Go ahead and smash that like. I don't have a good sign off today. Thanks for coming back. We'll catch you guys next time. You can follow us or find us on the internet at dwellcc.org.