Hey, welcome to One of These Things, a podcast with Dual Community Church. A couple of episodes back, we had some moms come on talking about what it looks like to parent while also trying to be highly committed to the things of God. That podcast went really well, and we wanted to bring some dads in to talk about something similar. And so we brought in Chris Hardy, Brad Oatney, Matt Johanson, and Josh Dannemiller to talk about the challenges, but also the joys of getting to follow God while also parenting as a dad. The Moms podcast focused on getting quality time with God, despite the hectic life of parenting. This one focuses more on the quality of time dads should spend with their kids. And so we hope that you enjoy this podcast talking about what it looks like to be a spiritual parent from the dad's perspective. Okay. Welcome to Dwell on These Things podcast. Today, we've got an interesting discussion with a group of spiritual fathers, and my name's Chris. I'm one of the teachers here at Dwell, and I get the privilege of being able to talk to these guys about their experience and wisdom when it comes to being fathers. And the goal of our discussion here today is we've collected three highly committed dads, who've been walking with the Lord in spiritual wisdom, raising children for many years, some more than others. But hopefully some of this wisdom or some of the experience that we've each had will come through to help younger fathers in their parenting, or even fathers who've been fathering for a long time, who may want to brush up on some of their skills, or there's something that the Lord might lead you to, put His finger on, something that stands out in our discussion. So we pray for that here. I've got with me Josh Dannemiller. I've got with me Matt Johanson and Brad Oatney, Dr. Brad Oatney. And so we're going to start here by, I want to read a quote for you guys here. This comes from Den's book on Christian Parenting, A Relational Approach. And in his book, he's got a lot of really helpful advice when it comes to parenting across the board. So it's a book I really want to recommend by Dennis McCallum, Christian Parenting, A Relational Approach. And he talks at one point about the opportunities that we have as parents in raising our children and how incredible of a gift that really is. And I'm just going to read a brief quote here from him. He says, infants and young kids lack the power of moral choice because they don't have the necessary knowledge or understanding. This lofty capability develops slowly. That opens a window of opportunity for parents. Children at their most vulnerable, naive age are entrusted to those parents. We literally watch their moral natures form. Parents have the opportunity to sell their kids on a life of goodness. And that really struck me because he talks about this opportunity. That's really what we've experienced, our succession of opportunities from the Lord to be able to lead our children towards God, to develop a godly lifestyle and relationships on their own with their Lord, towards independence. And so, I was wondering, you know, we can start with any one of you guys, when it comes to that kind of larger point of the opportunity God's given you to raise your kids, how have you seen that opportunity or those opportunities been led by God, or how have you seen God involved in the opportunities He's given you as a father? Well, I guess I'll start off and say, this is Brad, that I would like to always make disclosures before I say anything. I am not a parenting expert, nor do I play one on TV. So yeah, I think along those lines of the opportunity is, I think you really want to, I think it's innate in us, a lot of, especially some dads, that, you know, you want to make a difference in the world. And you can use your energy and your time and your talents to do a lot of things. But this is one thing that if you put this in the right place on the priority list that you have in your life, and you do it, albeit inconsistently and poorly at times, what you get at the end is an unbelievable payback of watching a kid go through those different stages, like Dennis said, and knowing that you got to take what you've learned and try to lovingly influence this young person along the ways of God, and then watch them grow into an adult, and they decide if they want to continue this or not, there's just nothing like it. It's like, if you want to, if you're looking for something of the best return on investment on planet earth, it's being a good godly dad. That's really wise. It's something that brings a lot of joy, a lot of heartache, too, at times, but the ability to see your child form and grow their own relationship with God, you're having an impact on a soul that is an eternal impact, somebody that's been given into your care, and I love the way that the quote phrases that for us as fathers, it's an opportunity. God's given us an opportunity with our children, and what do we do with that opportunity? How do we allow that opportunity to be, have an eternal impact? I have a thought, this is Josh, by the way, yeah, the funny thing about kids, I feel like they're always imitating us, and the good, the bad, and the ugly, and unintentionally they do it, and they catch what we are into, like my kids are into Star Wars now, not because it's well-written, but because it's awesome, and I think it's awesome. And I think God is awesome, and following him is awesome, and my kids do, too. They didn't have to be argued into it, they didn't have to read a bunch of books, they didn't have to go to seminary, they got an education at home through my wife and I, and now they're into recommending Star Wars and God to their friends, and it's pretty cool. It's just like a natural feature of childhood that they catch what their parents are into. Yeah, and when it comes to spiritual things, them observing that in the household, seeing two parents who are walking with God, it's not a hokey thing, it's not a small thing, it's them seeing that modeling in your life in addition to the direct guidance you're giving them. And so, for them to, for a child to pick up something like an interest in Star Wars, you know, that's wonderful, it's exciting when you see a kid, especially when my son first started getting into Star Wars, I felt the same way, oh man, I'm so glad, he's loving the same thing I'm loving. And that has, you know, a value, but when you see that value in something that's so much greater, their relationship with God, all of a sudden, that's something that has been caught, and now that's growing in their life, yeah, that's an amazing feeling. Matt, did you have any thoughts? Yeah, this is Matt. One of the things, well, backing up a second, so the quote talks about, you know, very young kids and it is very exciting and very daunting to have, you know, more or less a blank slate to work with. One of the things I found myself doing as a parent of a young child, and I end up recommending to young parents is to start to narrate to your kid as much as you can about like what's going on in life, what you're into, your priorities, and the more and more they grow, the more and more natural that will be that you talk to them about what's going on in your lives, including the time you spend serving the Lord. Kids are impressionistic, we know that. They're going to be impressioned, have an impression laid on them by our culture, our world, society, entertainment, all these things, they're their friends. As a parent, the opportunity we're given is to leave a spiritual impression in this regard. And so, I like your advice because it's taking something that is innate in a child and it's trying to help guide that and mold that in such a way that allows for them to develop that love for the things that we know God has for us and who He is, and so we model that in our parenting. Yeah, I think that's great. Here's something I found interesting, another quote from Christian Parenting, a Relational Approach, under the same umbrella topic of the opportunity we have to help form our child. Dennis points out, "...merely meeting your child's physical needs isn't enough. You need much more. A young human soul is sensitive. You'll need to protect your children from trauma, abuse that can shred their souls. Also, the nurture of the soul is a challenging task. As we will see, the earliest years are among the most important in the development of the fluid soul growing in your child. Also important are the early and late teen years, where we win or we may lose our kids to a true, independent following of God. This is also typical when young people's faith becomes their own in their own true conversion." And I think that fits in well with what some of you guys have shared here because it's, yes, you have those young years, and we have different ages of fathers here in this room of their children, and so hopefully we can have a well-rounded kind of understanding of those different stages. Brad, for example, you've been able to get through those young and then into the teenage years and on into adulthood. How do we nurture our children's soul as Christian fathers? How have you seen that as you've raised your children, Brad? Boy, that's a great question. I think I kind of agree with the other two fellows here that having them watch what you do, you know, help them. They're going to celebrate what you celebrate. They're going to watch what you celebrate, and that was something that I learned early on is, you know, they're going to see what do you really get cranked up about, and is it business? Is it what you're learning in the Bible? Is it, you know, people coming to Christ? So I think trying to be cognizant of that and try to keep things prioritized that way. But I think probably Colossians 3.14 about above all things put on love has really helped me over the years because, you know, I had great parents, but they didn't know the Lord. And so basically all this was new to me, you know, being, getting married, having children, I was never exposed to any of this. So I was literally, I was a blank slate. So I think just trying to get my, I guess, my education from people who are ahead of me. I sought out some people who I thought, boy, they have a neat relationship with their kids and their kids seem to be interested in the things of God and having fun. That's kind of a cool blend. So I think it was that. It was trying to bring up scripture when appropriate. Trying to, yeah, just trying to put on love. I'm a transactional guy and I had to learn how to be a relational guy. And that's why Dennis's book is really, that's something that's helpful in that regard. Yeah. It puts the focus on the relationship. It puts the focus on the relationship and it's so easy to, you have so many pressures as a dad trying to, what about this? And trying to take care of all these other things functionally or whatnot, but they really just want to hang out with you. And I think like putting them to bed at night, giving them a bath every night, I just used to love that. Just, that's when they talk to you and you lay in their little bunk bed, you know, crunched up like a little, you know, letter C. And that's when they talk to you about, hey, you know, this thing happened today or what is this about? And I think just trying to get into their world, showing them nurturing, showing them kindness and, but also, you know, it's all driven by scriptural principles and trying to somehow ask God to put, tie a bow around all that. It's a, there's a lot in the soup. So I don't know if that makes full sense, but it's about love. I mean, really and truly, and my wife is so good, she was probably the main helper and truth teller for me to slowly, even currently shift from transactional relating to relational. And so, yeah, I think being cognizant of that, helping them see that, and if I can become more like Jesus and have my character transform in front of them and apologize when I don't, it makes it real to them. Yeah. And having, as you mentioned, having a spiritual wife makes a big difference. There's so many times where I don't know what to do or I don't have the words and my wife has that perfect thing that she's able to contribute and her care for my children and her motherly love is its own unique gift from God right there that it's something we don't, we don't have. We've got the fatherhood aspect of that and, but yeah, our wives are definitely necessary. So there's another element to this, another layer that isn't the topic of our discussion today that involves how do we maintain the health of our marriage and love and care for our wives so that we can have that partner in there and maybe we can have that discussion at another time. But Matt, I was wondering what your thoughts were. How old are your children, Matt? My kids are two, four, and six, so everything is noisy and chaotic at my house, but it's really fun. I really love being a dad. What have you learned about when it comes to nurturing your children and some of the experiences you've had with developing that relational side when it comes to, especially with younger children? Yeah, I really resonate with what Brad was talking about there, being present for things like bath time, building in lots of relational capital with them. I think it's so great. You just really develop real affection for your kids when you are there and involved and it's really great. I, unfortunately, am the kind of person who is quick to criticize, so I really need to lean heavily into building in time with my kids, building up that relationship, because I am that kind of dad who wants to correct and stuff like that. Now, I know that Ephesians 6, verse 4 says, do not exasperate your children, but train them in the Lord, but yeah, building up that time with the kids. My wife and I were trying to spend more intentional time doing, we call it special time, but individual one-on-one time with our kids and trying to make that a regular habit. I would really love it if my kids always remember that being a thing. I think that would be so cool going forward. So the one-on-one time with your children, definitely an important aspect of it. That's where the relational capital is built, as it would be with any friend or any shared experience you're having with somebody. And Josh, what's your experience with that? What have you noticed when it comes to that relational side of building in with your children? First of all, let me ask, how old are your children? Yeah. Seven, five, two and a half, and I have a three-week-old at home. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. What have I learned about that relational time? I think the same way that I got to know my wife, you know, through dates, like you catch your kids, you know, around the house and you talk to them, but you're like, they're in the middle of life. But if you can get out of the house or have separate time with your kids, that's where you get deep. That's where they trust you. I knew it was working when my son, after like a couple of weeks of not having date night or date morning, asked me, when are we going to have date morning again, dad? I really miss daddy time. I knew like, that's, it's working. Like all the insecurities I have about that time, what am I going to talk about? Where are we going to go? Is it going to cost money? And all he's wondering is when are we going to have daddy time? Um, that's, that's what I knew it was working. Yeah. It's really heartwarming when you hear that from your kids and, uh, Brad, you have thoughts on that. First, let me ask you, Brad, how old are your children? I have, uh, one that's 33, 31 and 25. All right. And what have you learned in these years in between? I think that I was hearing these guys, yeah, the daddy date thing, um, that was all sort of something new I had never heard of before. And a young, an older, uh, Christian brother was telling me about that. And he said, boy, the reason why you want to do this is if you can build like an invisible cord to them, a relational tether, and they start going through, uh, their, uh, spreading their wings years, you've got a little tiny connection to them. So they don't float all the way away because the wind starts blowing pretty hard. And you know, if you have that, you can, you stay connected no matter how awkward or alienated things can get. And that was golden advice. So I was, I remember early on, I took a half days off of my practice on Wednesday afternoon and then later Fridays so I could be their room dad. And just, you know, it was just so great. And the same things, you know, we would, um, have daddy dates. And at the time, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes I thought, are they ever going to remember feeding the ducks or, you know, dancing around in this little amphitheater or these other things. But as I did it, I started loving it and I started growing on me. So I agree with these guys. You don't want to underestimate the power of a daddy date. I think that's awesome. And, uh, I've gotten similar advice from wiser, older brothers in Christ that that time, it's almost as though with our children, we have a window into that relational building stage for those first 11 years, 12 years, maybe if you're lucky. And whatever you've built up to that point is going to hopefully, God-willingly help get you through those next, you know, that next decade. And by the time you come out on the other end of that, I know at least it was for me, I started seeing a little bit more clearly and some maturity had set in a little bit. And, uh, but those are the things that the kid, you know, your young children, if you're dad and you're like, oh, they feel the same way you did, but are they going to remember doing this? They may not remember the particulars. They may not remember, oh, on this day we went and we did this thing and we said this very thing. But there's a cumulative effect that happens where it's relational, that's a relationship that's being built over time. And it's almost, um, it's almost just, it's, it's like a fabric that runs under the surface. And as you mentioned, a tether that connects you in such a way, it's a friendship that's being built. And it's more than a friendship because it's a, it's, it's a father, a child relationship. And I agree with you. I think that does matter, uh, greatly and having regular time, you know, a lot of things that parenting books will point out is the importance of consistency with young children and everything, consistent bedtime. And some people take this into extremes with all of the training and things they put their kids through. Uh, one area of consistency that's often forgotten is this, this weekly, regular, consistent, consistent time where you're building those memories and that relationship and how important that really becomes. And you know, I think it's, it's one of the things that's so sad, uh, in our culture and, and, and this has been going on for generations, it's nothing new. The idea that you can have children, uh, who are automatically going to be looking up to their fathers, their mothers, they want that relationship. It's almost intrinsic that they want, they desire that. And when, when kids don't get that later in life, all sorts of other maladies come out and we've experienced some of that. But this idea of a father being disengaged from their family, from their children is, like I said, it's nothing new. And we've got biblical precedent for this. Uh, there's another really great book, uh, that I want to mention, written by Conrad Hilario, Searching for Wisdom, Finding the Father in the Proverbs. And he takes, uh, us through in the book, wisdom that he can glean, that he's gleaned from the Proverbs. And he has a section in there on spiritual parenting and, and fatherhood. And I just want to read a brief quote here from that section on biblical fathers. He says, Scripture presents numerous examples of godly men. Job brought sacrifices to the Lord on behalf of his children. Abraham showed loyalty to God when he planned to carry out the sacrifice of his son, Isaac. Joshua publicly pledged his and his family's service to the Lord. Yet Scripture never explicitly extols someone for being a good father. He says, like trying to search for a lost sock in the laundry, it's difficult to find one example of a good father in the Bible. And I'll be damned, that's true. Um, another thing that's always struck me is, uh, we don't hear in the years following, uh, the apostles' leadership of the church after the resurrection of Christ, he sends his apostles out and, uh, we have a bunch of information from those early church fathers about what those guys, what those apostles went on to do. We don't ever hear about their children. And so I, I'm confronted by that, that absence of, wow, these great examples of biblical fathers in Scripture. And I, and I have to conclude that first it's really difficult, right? We have everything going against us, uh, our culture, even our own flesh at times, difficulties that we encounter, the natural, uh, strain that can happen even amongst family members. And then we have this lack of great examples of biblical fathers. The Lord must have included in Scripture enough information for us at this point to glean information about how to be good fathers, right? It has to be there, right? I can't believe that the Lord didn't include that. And so searching the Scriptures and learning from the poor examples, learning from other good examples, and the one, uh, the one example that I want to highlight here that Conrad gives in his book on this topic of being a disengaged dad. He says, in many ways, David, King David, resembles countless fathers today, highly capable at work and yet completely inept at home. I've met men whom most consider experts in their field, yet they, they possess the natural ability to lead people, managing dozens or even hundreds of employees. But when they come home at night, they look confused and tired. They give the best hours of their day to work, leaving little else for their family. And you know, that pierces the heart, you know, as a father realizing lost time or the idea that, uh, I want to do better and thank the Lord we're under his grace and we are going to mess up. There's not, we have no reason to think that we're going to get it right all the time, but the Lord is gracious and he works even through our weaknesses and our failures. But on this topic of, of being disengaged, how can we move away from our culture's emotional and relational disengagement when it comes to fatherhood? How do we do that today? I think the first step is to read that book. That sounds like some great, great quotes there. My first thought is dads in our culture, they don't talk about being a dad. They talk about being a coach or their kid's grades or how their kids are doing at sports. There's not a premium on discussing, you know, how are you navigating rebelliousness with your kids? There's not a premium on talking about how do you, how do you develop trust with your kid or how do you teach your kid confidence? I think one way we can resist that is by actually having those conversations in our Christian fellowship. We have an open door with a perfect father to be honest about our inabilities as fathers. We have an awesome resource to resist that, but I think it's done in a community setting. So if you don't have dads that you can talk to about that, you got to, you got to find them. Well said. And, and, you know, the, the perfect example in scripture we have of a spiritual father is the Lord God himself, right? So we may lack these human examples, but we've got all the examples we could ever want when we learn and grow closer to the Lord. Matt, what are your thoughts on that? How do we, how do we move away from our culture's tendency towards disengagement relationally or emotionally in fatherhood? Yeah, one of the things I've been thinking about recently, my wife turned me onto this book called Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys by David Thomas. And one of the things that he points out is that there's a lot of confusion in the world about what masculinity really looks like. You know, kind of the older model would be like, you know, men are macho and stuff like that. More recently in our culture, it seems to be that, you know, men always come out on top. They always win, stuff like that. And he really makes the case that we need to be, you know, emotionally vulnerable with our children. They need to see us go through loss and hardship and not sugarcoat these things in order to teach our children what it really is like out there and what it means to be a real man. Boy, I couldn't agree more. And maybe for guys, this is, it's more difficult for us to be in touch with our emotional side. I think every guy would admit that, right? And so when it comes to that all-important factor in that relationship with our children, where we can be emotionally engaged with them, our natural tendency may be to not have any idea how to do that, right? And so I love the advice that you give, which is talking with them about these things and being willing to share these things. Or like you shared, Josh, the idea of getting advice and leaning on the body of Christ in such a way. Or how, you know, maybe talking to a father that's a few years ahead of you. How did you navigate this period of time and what did you learn here? And there are resources that the Lord gives us. You mentioned raising emotionally healthy boys, right? The book, the two books I've mentioned here today. There's literature we can read. We can be readers when it comes to this, studying the topic. And then practically speaking, Brad, what have you learned about having those kinds of relationship with your children in those conversations, I mean? So to kind of go with these guys, I think what I had to do to lean against the culture is to learn to be intentional. Like I need to be a guy who's going to be intentional and proactive when it comes to parenting because I know that my job wants to own me. I mean, it comes calling for me. It still comes calling. I'm only working part-time, but it comes calling for you. So I think you have to sit down early on. My wife and I, when we were thinking about having kids and we sat down some non-negotiables and said, these are our non-negotiables. And she was like, and you know, this is not a declaration. It's just what we decided personally is she's like, I would like to stay home and raise my children. I'd rather not work. And so we had to make lifestyle choices about that regarding where we're going to live, what's our lifestyle, how much am I going to work? I sat down with my partners and said, I want to work less. And it got so quiet in the room because I was a young doctor. And I mean, it was like, because they said, are you willing to make less money? And I said, sure. And they went, I mean, it was like, I thought they were going to be like, what is wrong with you? And those are our worlds to non-negotiables, the time and the money. And so setting that down at a hard set, like this is not movable, was helpful because it's all coming for you, you know, less of the flesh, less of the mind, eyes and boastful pride of life. I mean, it's coming, it's oozing into all your pores every day, every time you get out of bed and you have to kind of know, I already have a mission, I already have a thing that I've already pre-decided and it's helpful. So I think that's, that was helpful to us. We had these little things called, my wife wasn't super fond of them Oatney Summits. I was probably a little bit too insane and business-like, but you know, we, we figured that we, we, I tuned it down, but yeah, you have to, you have to talk about these things because if you don't, if you know, like the old example, if you're starting out on a 30 hour flight and you're one degree off, when you get there, you're in another country and you're thinking, wow, but that was only this little thing. But if you lock on and say, we're not going to deviate and Lord help us, you can end up hopefully at least where you are. And when you make mistakes, you use, you know, you have grace and you, you know, you say, hey boy, I know I said I wasn't going to be working all the time, but it looks like I'm working all the time again. And or people would be, you got to have truth tellers. I've had a lot of truth tellers that had said hard things to me about character and lifestyle things I was doing. And I would usually be pissed when they would bring it up and then pray about it a little bit. But as those people keep coming at me, I realized these are people who love me. They're taking a huge risk to say some things to me. And these are friends. These aren't people kind of on the left field. I'm not saying it saltily. They're just saying, you say you want to live for God, but if you do these other things, that's an opportunity cost loss of that time. I just want to make sure that you know, you can't love both of these things and excel at both of them. And that was, that was, those were some hard fought battles for the Lord, for him. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things you said there that these are, these are, this is great wisdom. On the one hand, you counted the cost in advance, in advance, you decided these are the non-negotiables for our family. And you, you were setting a list of priorities. This is what we're going to prioritize. And it reminds me of Joshua, as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord, right? And, and then the second thing is, is being willing to hear from God on how he might be leading you. And that guidance from the Lord is necessary for us. We have to be guided by him. And so we realize when we, when we evaluate that there are all these paths that the Lord will guide us on. And oftentimes, as Josh, you shared earlier, we've got the Lord working and speaking through the body of Christ, the people he's put around us. We have his scripture, we have our prayer and so on and so forth. But being willing to hear from God on these issues, you know, if I'm an heir, if I'm that one degree off, that if, you know, Lord, I pray you would, you would bring that to mind. You would, you would share if there's any harmful way within me. Be careful to pray that prayer, I'm telling you. The Lord will bring it in. Buckle your seatbelt. He'll bring it up. He'll bring it up. I thought you'd never ask. So are we, you know, the question we have to answer, are we willing to hear from the Lord if there's a way of heir in our thinking on this? And I think that's, I think that's really wise. Those are all, I like what you guys have shared here. We have to, as a, as a spiritual father who's highly committed to following the Lord, raising our families, being a good husband, being a good father. We have to be willing to move against our culture's constant desire to take more and more of our time, attention, love, life resources. And, and, and because when we give into those things, it's very easy, especially the things that are closest to us to slip through our fingers. And you get several years or decades down the road, if you've ever talked to a father, as I have, whose adult children have moved on and they look back in resentment and wishing that they had done things differently and the sadness that they express and boy, I've heard some of those stories and seen some of those and, and some of us even came from families like that. And we just don't want to repeat that. I think, you know, just repeating the same thing, going through the same thing over and over again, that doesn't work, it's, that's the definition of insanity, right? And, and so when it comes to something so important as raising spiritual children, being a highly committed spiritual father, we can't, we can't make exceptions to those kinds of things. So I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you shared there. Practically, I think there's a lot of particulars here. You know, one of the things you mentioned, Brad, was being intentional. And we hear that frequently if we're walking with the Lord, the importance of intentionality and so forth. We've already talked about the importance of that relational time with our children. But when it, when it comes to practically, functionally leading our family well, what have you gentlemen learned about leading your children and your family well through fatherhood? What are some of the lessons? I think one thing you definitely got to do is debrief with your spouse regularly, you know, not with your smartphone in your hand, but like talking to each other about observations from the day or things you're thinking about, things you wish for your children, things you're afraid of for your children, like those are really important conversations to have. Yeah, I think that's great. And that's come up a couple of times, this idea of having that, that conversation with your wife and being willing to work through these things together. And Josh, did you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's tempting to want to abdicate leadership because of how complex and unprepared you are. Like when you, when that kid is given to you in the hospital, you're like, what do I do with this? Yeah, I shouldn't be allowed to walk out of this place. Like they should. Do they know who I am? Yeah, they should arrest me for stealing this baby. And I think that morphs as you get older, you don't really feel like you become an expert ever in this. And so it's tempting to, well, I don't need to be an expert and I don't really need to lead here. I think that's, you know, really important that you have sound, a scriptural basis for fatherhood because the tendency is going to be want to throw your hands up in frustration with your wife, with God, with your kids, and you just can't afford to do that. Yeah, I think that's good. Again, it's the unwillingness to compromise. It's to set a standard and principles that you're following. And I think that we have plenty of scriptural evidence for why that's an important thing to have a well-managed and well-guided life. And the importance of leading our families is clearly represented in scripture. What kind of unique challenges have you dads noticed when it comes to your personal spiritual life and maintaining a high commitment to the Lord while also having the great responsibility of raising your family, you know, developing a relationship with your children, maintaining a healthy marriage? What kind of challenges have you faced and any helpful advice that you might want to offer with that? Howard Hendricks once said, the best thing a man can give to his child is to be completely unashamedly in love with his wife, the kid's mother. And that is a tall order, one that I have been navigating for 36 years. And yeah, I think when you can be like-minded, that's one heck of a gift to your child. That's great advice. And I'm not saying again, disclaimer, I am not a subject matter expert on that. No one is perfect in those things, that's for sure. Speaking of Howard Hendricks, he had another piece of advice. It was the ability to say no. You have to have the ability to say no to things because so much of life is going to be competing for your bandwidth, whether it's work, hobbies, interests, whatever they might be, they're going to want to pull your attention away. And it's important that you and your wife have the ability to say no for each other. Like I'll regularly ask my wife if I can do X, Y, and Z, and she'll bring up, well, you do that, you're going to miss out on this. I'm like, well, I'm glad I asked you about that. I'm glad you said no, because I would have missed out on this. So I think being able to say no, if you can't say no, you're going to just be terrible at a lot of things. Yeah, you're going to be pulled in a thousand different directions. And I think that leads into this, it's a part of the discussion on how do we make the time for this when we have all of these different things? One way is to say no, right? As you just shared. Okay, I don't have the bandwidth for all these things. And so like you shared, Brad, having a prioritized list, non-negotiables, these are the things that I'm going to prioritize. Are there other helpful tips that you guys could share when it comes to making the time to lead your family and not allowing other things to be taken, you know, taking all of your attention or all of your emotional attention? And you know, like the quote I read earlier, so much of our attention gets squandered, even on an emotional level, by our career or by something else that we have going on so that when we come home, we have very little to give. What have you guys noticed that's helpful in that regard? I can definitely relate with that and my wife and I, we often feel like broken husks sometimes just trying to navigate parenting and stuff like that. One of the things that we've worked through is, you know, even when you do feel like you have nothing to give, you know, maybe pushing yourself to still go to that meeting, that hangout, you know, be around the body of Christ, you know, do what you need to do to get that spiritual nourishment that you would not get if you stayed at home on your comfy couch under your comfy blanket. Great point. Great point. So you bring up the idea of you personally, as the father, getting the nourishment you need so that you have something to give out, even if it's very little. And I can't tell you how often I've been in that situation where even after getting time with the Lord, I still am like, I don't know how much more I have to give tonight or this afternoon or whatever the time may be. And then still, you know, sticking with it and seeing God come through anyways, in spite of my own weaknesses. And that's, we see that in the New Testament frequently, the idea that God will take something and the Old Testament, something that's a weakness or inability, and just because we may not be able, if we've made ourself available to Him, He can do some great things through it. Have you noticed this, Brad? I have. I, we, you know, we, early on, I remember we had three, I think it was two kids, I don't know if we had our third yet or not, but, and I was getting ready to go to a men's Bible study in the evening. And I remember the kids were clamoring a little bit, they're getting a little sad, like, please stay home, Daddy, you know, stay home and play with us. And I remember, I can't remember if I said it or Ellen said it, probably Ellen, something like, yeah, Daddy's going to go with his Bible study because he's got friends too that he's making it, he's building relationships with. And he goes and learns about what the Bible says, and so he can come back and be a better dad with you. And they'd be like, oh, okay. That's awesome. And instead of their carrying on and going nuts, just have a little conversation. And I just remember going, huh, yeah, that's, that's great. That's why I'm going. But trying to just be straight up with them about things. And I think also having to have your own conviction, like Psalms 127, 3, about that children are a gift from the Lord. They're a reward from him. So if God really made me and he is sovereignly good and he's, his loving kindness never ends, he says he's given me these children as a gift and a reward. Am I going to see them as more of a nuisance and a time suck, or am I going to get a biblical or let God wrestle with me and let me work my way back to, you know, do I believe this or not? But when you do believe that, that sacrifice you make or the time commitment or the using it towards building that relational capital versus working more or hobby more or just, you know, whatever you do with that other time, I think, I think you get clarity. I think God will give you real clarity. Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely found that to be the case. And how we, in the story you shared about going off to your men's group, the kids, please don't leave daddy, you know, how we talk as fathers about our commitment to God, our commitment to the body of Christ, to fellowship, really matters around the house when kids are there because they're hearing from mom and dad, oh, we got to go to this thing or, oh man, I really don't want to do this or, oh, I'm so tired or, and the complaining that so naturally comes to us that our children as sponges are hearing that. And what are they to make of that then that, oh, mom and dad really, you know, don't want to do this, but, you know, and they're complaining about it. And so I think the way we talk, but it's not that I have to go to men's group tonight. It's not that I have, I'm really excited. I want to go to this and I get the opportunity. This is a privilege that God has given it. How we discuss those matters around our family are so important. And so I think that leads us into kind of another important aspect of this that we've touched on a little bit, but in order to maintain and develop that kind of perspective as a father, we have to be getting quality time with the Lord ourselves, right? And oftentimes that's the first thing to go, right? Because we're busy with our career, we're busy with the family, and then we've got our hobbies and, you know, of course there's, you know, the TV and the phone and, you know, all of the distractions we have. How have you gentlemen found, what has worked for you in maintaining and continuing to develop a high priority on your own personal relationship with the Lord and your time with Him in the midst of the chaos of fatherhood? That's a great question. I was just going to add this in your last question, if there's a dad who doesn't know where to start, if they're, you know, saying, I haven't really been leading my family, my kids, where do I, how do I even begin this titanic process? And I think it starts with prayer. Like if you can't start there, there's no amount of like tips and tricks that are going to help you. And Paul Miller's book, Praying Life, he talks about, I think the cracks of the day. It's like, you know, on your way to work at lunch, on your way home from work, on your way to kid's soccer practice or whatever, like finding even if it's three minutes to pray, I find that that reenergizes me before I get home after work. And instead of just listening to podcasts or audio books, which that's, that would be my tendency, knowing that this time is like me preparing for an act of service, which is getting home to love my kids. So that's one piece of advice. I think that's great advice because it's amazing how you might be feeling one moment before you get home, but then after you've walked in the door, things might change and you don't know exactly what's going to be on the other side of that door either. And what kind of mood is the family going to be in? But you're recommending, okay, getting yourself prayed up with the Lord before you get to that point, maintaining that and looking for any opportunity you have to maintain that communication with our Heavenly Father. How helpful that is. Okay, that's great. Other advice that you guys have learned over the years on maintaining your own personal relationship with the Lord? Yeah, I think we just have to be really shrewd and creative with our time. There's been times I've been listening to the audio Bible while giving my two-year-old a bath. You know, sometimes that's the time in the day to make it happen. But yeah, doing things like going on walks, getting away from work, getting away from whatever, getting that personal time with the Lord. Yeah, don't be afraid to change your system. My dad's been following the Lord for, let's say, about 45 years. And he made this off-headed comment that was really refreshing, that every now and then he still has to change how he does his prayer list to the Lord. And it was just so refreshing to hear that I'm not going to necessarily get to a point where I will have arrived and figured it all out and stuff like that. I just got to keep trying different things. If things get a little stale, refresh it up and try something else. I think that's great advice. Yeah, never expect, or even for that matter, I'll add, compare. Oh, well, I once had all this time with less responsibility, therefore things were better, and so on and so forth. And kind of going down that nostalgia rabbit hole, which can be easy, I think, for some people. But be adaptable and find ways to make it happen. Find those cracks in the day like you shared, Josh. Or if you're giving the kid the bath, listening to the audio Bible, and you're hearing it, and so is your child at that point. So there's dual purpose there, and your children seeing, oh, Dad really prioritizes this as well. Right? So making it happen, being flexible, and finding ways to make that time happen. Brad, what have you learned? Yeah, I think the same thing. You have to be resilient. You'll go through ups and downs, sometimes sitting there, and you sit down to read, and you fall asleep because you're exhausted from the parenting duties or whatnot. I found driving, boy, driving back, my practice was usually, I had two different ones, but one of them, a couple of days a week, I would drive 30 miles for 30 minutes. And then at lunch, I would leave my practice, and there was this cool little park out in London, and I would go sit underneath these trees and eat my lunch and listen to Chuck Smith for like 25 minutes, the word for the day or whatever he called it. And I did that almost for 10 years. And I felt like, man, I'm getting this old dude's wisdom, then I've got time on my own, then I've got a home church meeting and a central teaching. I just looked how richly the inflow was high if I wanted it. And then just trying to, over the years, learning how to read the Bible and understand it for my own and learn how to understand it and to be able to teach others. And I think walking, I remember some of the older brothers would talk about taking prayer walks or getting out in nature. So I started doing that, whatever it takes. I just know, my wife's made a huge statement one day, she says, I don't think you understand the enormous weight that your words have in this house. When you say something or walk in, whether it's good or bad, you have more responsibility. You should take note of what you're doing because you're going to make some waves, whether they're good waves or bad waves. But God has sort of given you that spot as a dad. And that was early on in marriage and I was like, oh, that's terrifying. Because it is heavyweight, right? Luckily, the Lord wants to help with that and he will. But it's been imperfectly growing and it's, you know, it's God's grace. He wants us to know him and know him, not about him, but actually him. And I've been convinced, the older I get, that he sometimes has to work in us, in our character before he works through us. And if you don't have something out of the Bible, I'm just spouting off, you know, worldly, interestingly polished sounding data that has no eternal significance. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where are we getting the knowledge of the information or the words that we're sharing? Where are they coming from? They're going to come from somewhere. It's very humbling. Yeah. And I think you make another good point, which is that, of course, we can, I think we can rightly assume the Lord wants us to be getting time with him. He wants us to know him better. And so for a highly committed spiritual father to also desire that, the Lord's going to open doors and make time for that. We may need to be creative. We may need to figure out maybe slightly different ways, but oftentimes if we step back for a moment and reflect, okay, we take a time inventory on our week, you know, and those are real scary. I don't like doing them. But the idea that, okay, well, you know, and our phones now, you can just look on your phone to see how much time you spend on your phone throughout the day and just pull that up real quick. It's scary when we, when you realize I have, I have, you know, been spending my time in ways that I easily could have been with the Lord. You know, I could have been in some prayers and time reading his word and, and instead I was listening to that podcast or I was scrolling on social media or I was engaged in my hobby. And it's not as though God doesn't want us to have hobbies and enjoy life. He certainly does. But when your time gets more and more precious, the more responsibilities you have in life, we have to take stock of these things and really, really consider that. And I think that's good advice. Okay. Now, this is, this is a question I have for you guys that I want you to feel first off to remember that we're under grace here and the Lord has forgiven us because of his, because of what he's done for us through his son. And we all make mistakes. And I want everyone who listens to this to understand that as some of the dads have already said here, none of us have this perfect. And a lot of the story of our fatherhood has been mistakes that we've made and God will graciously work through even our imperfect efforts. But what would you do looking back maybe on the, could be the last couple of years, could be the last couple of decades, in whatever timeframe you have available in your parenting history, looking back, what is something that you are most grateful you have not compromised on? One of the things that I do is I put our big kids to bed, the four and the six year old every night. And a long time ago, started praying with the kids every night. And it's been really cool. And you know, sometimes they'll jump in and they'll add some things. Usually I solicit, you know, things that they're thankful for from the day, which can be a wide variety of things come out of their mouths, but you know, try to, try to celebrate it and be excited for them and keep encouraging that. But yeah, we've kind of built up a couple of years now of doing that. And it's been really cool. And we're even starting to add a little bit more substance to it. Down at the Joel bookstore, I spotted a book called the One Minute Gratitude Journal by Tommy Nelson, which is given a little bit more substance to it. But also like, does a really good job of explaining biblical concepts to kids. Like I keep thinking about the verse that talks about, you know, God's sheltering his people like a bird under their wings. And one of the activities in it is that you had to draw that. And you know, my four and six year old, you know, they did their best drawing it and stuff. But like that visual is really powerful in my head. And I hope it sticks with them as much as it does with me. That's awesome. That's cool. So developing that prayer time with your children, not compromise. It's because it's easy, especially at night, the end of the night, you're exhausted. My wife and I have had to change our date time. We can't do it at night. We're too tired. So we do it in the morning, you know, and that's just what you got to be flexible. So I love that, praying with your children every night. I think one thing, I got this from an older believer. I watched him bring his little kids to a college campus Bible study at 8 p.m. every week for years and put them in a really dirty room, probably not up to code, pretty gross. And watching that convinced me like, yeah, bringing your kids around fellowship on a weekly basis is very inconvenient, but it is one of the best things you can do to include your kids from early to see what you're about, see who you hang out with, what your time is like, even through COVID, having people hang out in our garage when we had kids. So I think embracing the inconvenience of incorporating your kids, that's probably like my biggest star I'd give myself is just embrace the suck as the Marines say, or the Navy SEALs, and make it happen. I think that's great. There's a million things that will come up on an evening when you have a Bible study and you've got young children, reasons why you can justify, I can't go tonight, or one of us stays back, and on occasion, you don't have a choice. That does happen. There are times like that. But trying to minimize those and your children growing up around fellowship has a major impact on their lives. I've seen that with my own kids as well, and they love going to home church. They look forward to it. It would be a great punishment if we said you can't go tonight. They would cry and hate that. Brad, what have you been happy that you haven't, or glad that you haven't compromised on? Yeah, I think probably prayer comes quickly to mind. I feel I really enjoy praying for my kids daily, sometimes a couple times during the day, just because the crazy what's coming for them when they were little, and just that they could be convinced that living for God is worth it. And just consistently through the thick and the thin and the up and the down, and when things would get squirrely, I remember just literally getting on my knees outside of their door and be like, God, please protect them from themselves, like literally on my knees begging like, I have no... I'm flying so blind here, and I'm just going to trust you. Drew me close to God and helped me get into a good rhythm of that. Praying with them, I think like Josh said, is also, or both of them, is neat. Also having them see our house was always full of people. Had home church meetings there, had junior high groups there. I think maybe high school groups, but somebody was always in our basement. And we got to meet a lot of their friends, and a lot of the people who led those younger Bible studies became friends of our family, and they'd come over for dinner, and 10 years later or five years later, my wife and I had the privilege of doing marriage mentoring and premarital work with some of the people who had Bible studies for my younger kids. You just see this, how it all comes together. It was crazy. And then having... When I was a room dad, and Ellen and I would do these different things at school, that even some of those kids who grew up throughout the ranks with our kids, when it was time to get married, they were like, hey, would you and Ellen do our premarital? And you're just like, wow, this is like heaven on earth. It's crazy. I mean, it's just, there's literally nothing like that. And I was like, man, you know, I could have had a way more financially successful practice and I could have had a lot of different things. Cleaner house. Bigger. Yeah. I could have been doing a lot of things. But at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's, it is, I don't even really have words for it. It's a great, it's, it's very fulfilling. It's worth it. It's worth it. It's worth the struggle and all the hardship or difficulty and the, you know, the, the, the phrase that has always struck with me is the days are long, but the years are short. And as a parent, you really understand that. And there's, there's a, there's an element. I remember when I first had, my first child was born and, and I'm holding her in my arms. I had that thought that you did, Josh, are they going to let me, you know, take, take this kid out of here. And, and then it was like a, it was like a new dimension facet of love in my heart opened up in a way that I didn't realize was possible. And what a great opportunity that the Lord has given us there to experience another aspect of his love. And, and, and as a parent, as a father loving your children, you get, you get a greater appreciation and understanding a little bit of how much God loves us. And I think your guys' advice is great there. And I'm glad that that's something you didn't compromise on. One more thing on that is I think I always wanted them to see me taking risks spiritually, personally, or just like, I wanted them to see me, Hey, you know, the old man kept growing. Like he was cantankerous and he could be a handful, but he seemed to, God could wrestle with him a little bit. And he keep, he kept saying yes to God. That was one thing I was really hoping, like starting going on mission trips. I was like, I don't want to go on mission trips. That sounds crazy. Like, I don't like to fly 30 hours. I like to know where I'm sleeping and what I'm eating. And I like to have life all buttoned up and God's like, well, that's not how these work. And they're, you know, so I think it's really important to have them see, do you really believe all these things that you're talking about, or do you actually do them? Because I want them to, you know, and again, I'm very, a very imperfect man. I've got plenty of data points if you need them, but you know, when they see you do what you're talking about, I think that's very compelling. I watched my grandfather, there are very memorable things. We were at a store, someone gave him too much money back. I was about 10 and he's like, hey, there's a problem here. And she was like, what? He was like, you gave me a dollar too much change. And he walked over and gave it back. And I was, I was struck. I mean, I was, I mean, that was 60 years ago and it was like yesterday, but I was like, wow, integrity moment. I think when we can find things like that, when they see us doing what we say we believe, that's going to teach more than any Bible study sometimes that they could go to. I think it has to come together. Right. There's no substitute. You know, no matter what you say, if you're not living that out, there's no reason for them to believe you. And it's one thing with friends, acquaintances, coworkers, they don't see you every day at your worst sometimes at home. Your kids do, your spouse does, right? So are you putting your money where your mouth is? Yeah. I have a little joke about that. When you're driving around with your kids, they are basically strapped into a first row expose of your marriage with your wife. Like they can't, they can't look at anything else, but how you talk to each other. And it's a pretty humbling when you think about it that way. It's another good example. Seeing the kids, your children, seeing how you interact with your spouse and how you talk to one another and how you love one another. And yeah, I think that's great. It's another thing for us to think about as fathers. Howard Hendricks said something on that too. He was like, you know, I used to talk to my sons, he said, and I'd say, you know, guys, I hope, I know you're young, but I hope when you get old enough, I hope they still make them like your mom. Like, I hope you're lucky enough to get somebody like your mom. And I just thought, so I tried some of those things out. It sounds kind of crazy, but it was very, uh, it was kind of cool. That's great. That's a great quote. All right. Remember under grace here, looking back, what would you do differently if you were starting out over all over today? What might you avoid or what have you learned that you might want to do different? A mistake I've made a lot is correct the action first, as opposed to making myself available for my child, especially if they're feeling really big feelings in the moment and they're too upset to understand what's going on. The more I've learned about discipline and kids' emotions, the more it suggests you got to get in there emotionally first and then try to correct the action. My daughter in particular, she has very big feelings, gets, can get real upset real quickly. And any correction I offer her, any instruction I offer her is not going to land unless I first get to her first. Which emphasizes the importance of that relationship that, that we started talking about. Great point. Hmm. I really, um, hate this question because I know my answer is going to mean I'm going to have to, to make a change now. Um, um, but I think the thing I've, um, failed the most at, and I learned this from a Tim Keller, honestly, from a teaching he did on parenting. He talks about the conflict of hobbies and kids that as a dad, um, you know, you're tired, your days are all the same, same set of, you know, circumstances. So you look forward to your hobbies a lot. It gives you like a release, you get excited about it, but what kids are really good at are throwing a wrench in your plans. And the conflict of, um, how do you navigate the balance of like my own hobbies and my kids, um, can create a lot of tension. So for me, when I look forward to my hobbies, they normally start where my kids go down. And that means I might be rushing bedtime, like a sacred thing with kids. Uh, it can be more tense, quick to anger. Um, so I think just having an appropriate view of your hobbies actually allows you to be really present with your kids. And um, that's one thing I've, I've had to learn. Yeah. I think that's great. And, and, um, not allowing your hobbies to interfere with these all important non-negotiable type things that we were talking about earlier. That's great advice. Brad, did you have any thoughts? How much time do you have? Yeah, I, I think, um, uh, geez. Yeah. I think, uh, the importance of understanding, uh, the need to have humility. I, I still don't have much of it, but I had none of it early on and, you know, uh, I think my kids paid a price for that when I'm thinking, I, you know, there's a way that seems right to a man, but at the end it leads into, to destruction. I, I, the first part of that verse, I was, I lived by very, uh, energetically, uh, but I didn't know the second part of the verse and that's a real, that's real. So that's, that's, uh, I've, I've had to apologize many times. Um, I watch, uh, like, you know, Mike and Liz, my kids do their parenting and how they take their, you know, just, it's a whole nother world to me of, you know, like you were talking about, Matt, about their feelings. And I would be like, you know, you're, you're not, you know, bloody, you know, you're fine. And I just thought, you know, it's, I mean, my dad, I mean, I had a broken clavicle for a week. I didn't go to the doctor and I was crying and I'm like, look, I can't move my arm. They're like, shut up. You're fine. I was like, that's good. Made me tough. And I'm like, that's a pretty good idea. Well, come to find out that's not that great. So that was a, I had to unlearn that with lots of friendly counseling and help from others and, you know, my wife, you know, helping me. But I think, yeah, uh, learning the difference between, uh, impact and intent, intent and impact. Uh, I, I wish I had known that theory when I was a young dad. That would have been very helpful. Um, yeah. Learning about, um, relational versus transactional, uh, parenting. But yeah, I think those are the things like, uh, learning to apologize, uh, there for a while. I just thought out early on, um, boy, if you can teach your kid, if you can give them all these skill sets to make them like Renaissance people, whatever comes their way in life, ministry, business, whatever, you're going to be able to, uh, push through and excel through. And I remember my wife was always saying little things like, you know, where's God in that? And I was like, boy, uh, yeah, knife to the heart. So things like that. And, uh, you know, I think some of my kids are like, can we ever do something good enough to please you? Cause you always put that, but why didn't you? And that was, that really, that was, uh, that was soul crushing to me. So yeah, a lot of, a lot of humble pie and crow. I've got had a solid diet. Well, I'll tell you one thing you said there that I've learned has become very important is, uh, your ability as a father to apologize to your kids, say, I'm sorry, or, you know, I messed up. I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. I was wrong there, which is a hard thing to do. And, um, but I think your children seeing that in some ways can go even further. And, um, our children should not view us as fathers, as these perfect, you know, they shouldn't put us on a pedestal. They do because that's what kids do with the fathers. But, um, when you, when you live a real life of authenticity and integrity, you have to go back and apologize sometimes. And that can have an even greater impact, I think, in the long run. Thanks for sharing that fellas. I want to, I want to end on one final question here, which is, uh, kind of a, I don't, it's an interesting question. I'm not even sure how I would answer this, but I'll throw it out there to see what you say. What would you want your kids to say about you once they've grown up and matured? Um, once they are God-willingly independent, healthy adults, acclimatized to their spiritual and social and all, everything else in this world, what would you want them to look back and say about your house, your fathering? I'd love to hear them say, my dad loved me well. And he tried, uh, with the limited tools he had in his toolbox, he let the Lord teach him how to use them. And, uh, he kept trying, he kept, um, going to the Lord and I got to watch the old fella have his character transformed over the years. And, uh, I know that's the work of God and if he can do it for him, he can certainly do it for me. That's awesome. That's great. Josh or Matt? Um, I think I'd want them to say he, he wasn't just a learner. He was a doer. Um, I think my kids are going to see me trying to learn a bunch of stuff cause that's my personality. But what is going to matter is if I'm putting that stuff into practice and that's going to give them a picture of how they could do that too as future fathers, uh, brothers to each other. Um, yeah. Yeah. I think that's great that they see that you really did what you talked about. You were a doer. Good. Matt? This is tough cause there's so many things you could say here, but I would want them to something along the lines of he loved God. He loves me. He loves mom. That's awesome. I think it'd be great. As simple as that. I think that's an important question as fathers for us to ask ourselves because, um, how we answer that question will matter how we get through that day in and day out. You know, that's really filtering all those priorities down to the most important thing, you know, or one of the most. So I really appreciate the wisdom you guys shared here. And, um, I think, uh, this is probably a good spot for us to end this discussion. Did anyone have anything else they'd like to share? Maybe something that came to mind, uh, as we were talking about this, that might be helpful for anyone listening to this. Um, otherwise, uh, I think we can close it down. One thing that, um, really waves heavy on my heart is making sure that my kids don't feel like they're competing for my attention with my smartphone. Like in my household, we have a no phones at the dinner table rule. It's easy at the moment because it's just my wife and I, but we want that to be the standard. Like we want people to be, we want our kids and our family to be available for each other to communicate, not compete. I think that's great. Tech use is a big issue, uh, with, with, uh, parenting. As a matter of fact, I think if I were to answer that last question, what would I do? Or a couple of questions go, what would I do differently? I would be even more strict on tech use. And, uh, I, I think by most standards, I, my kids would say I'm real strict, you know, but, um, they're 10 and 11 and I wish I was even more strict. So, you know, for those of you listening, take that however you will. But I think what Matt shared is really practical, valuable advice, which is, um, in our world today, the screen and, and all tech video games, all of that are there. Our children are going to be getting that from their friends, from our culture everywhere. And it's extremely attractive to them. Uh, and it's designed to be so. So as good fathers, we have to be very careful about how we, how we manage that, I think. I think it'd be good if you're a new dad to try to get yourself a band of brothers who are also new dads and learn how to be vulnerable and learn how to say, you know, man, I feel like I'm really struggling here. Or boy, I really blew it yesterday. Or if you have a group of people in the same life phase as you and who also, uh, know what, you know, can help each other with biblical principles, not just commiserating and, and, and complaining about it, but doing some commiserating and complaining and then say, but yet, now what? Uh, I think that is super helpful because you feel overwhelmed and inadequate. And when you see, oh yeah, I'm not alone. That is, uh, super helpful. I think it's just that learn how to, uh, just keep asking God, how is it that I can be faithful? What does faithfulness look like in each stage of this adventure? And lastly, just really, you know, enjoy the adventure. I mean, it's a great adventure. Being a father is it's for me, it's one of the greatest adventures ever. And you don't want to wish it away and you don't want to miss it. And you don't want to sell it for something of much lesser value. Those are wise words. I think that we can end on. Thank you fellas for all of that wisdom. And, uh, my prayer is that, um, everyone listening to this would, um, take these thoughts and questions they have about parenting to the Lord. Start with him. Uh, he's the perfect father, the perfect example we have to turn to. And so thanks for listening to well on these things podcast on high commitment fatherhood.